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Forums - General - North Korea vows nuclear retaliation for USA-SO.KO. military drills

Rath said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Rath said:
 


Joking right? Assasinating them would make problems worse, especially in Iran. Iran has a grass roots progressive movement, it's best left alone if it's to flourished. In N.Korea assassinating Kim Jong Il would lead to certain war and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of deaths.


This is a classic realpolitik reasoning, similar to what prevented France and UK from having Hitler killed asap. And guess what? Things just kept on going worse and at the end of WWII half Europe was given to Stalin (that actually initially planned to share it with Hitler, before Hitler's folly screwed up their plan, and was never punished for this, he eventually grabbed what he wanted with UK and USA permission instead).

So an assassination, even with its worst consequences, would just be a lesser bad. In Iran's case it would be necessary to kill the most integralist ayatollahs too, leaving alive the moderate ones, and obviously also the highest ranking pasdaran officers, so a well organized conspiracy would be necessary. But in North Korea, Kim's death would at the very least bring the limited positive effects of Stalin's death in the former USSR.


Stalin wasn't assassinated. Kim Jong Ils natural death (which probably isn't far off) will hopefully be good for N.Korea, assassination almost certainly wouldn't be, it would be a very legitimate casus belli.

Also you think there would be any moderate ayatollahs left after you assassinate half of them? They'll all become radicals.

I know Stalin died for a stroke and most probably left to die (but back then doctors could have done very little anyway) and what's curious, lower classes mourned him sincerely until his crimes were fully revealed. OTOH North Koreans are almost starving to death and I'm quite sure they wouldn't mind if somebody accelerated Kim's departure.

Moderate ayatollahs aren't stupid, and seeing the integralist ones killed while they were spared, they'd be quite quick to understand that the wind has changed.

BTW using Austrian rifles, besides their superior quality, is also to avoid a possible direct link to USA. Anyway, it would be better to outsource operations to Mossad, integralists couldn't by any means hate Israel more than now...   



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
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TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


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Kantor said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:


This is a classic realpolitik reasoning, similar to what prevented France and UK from having Hitler killed asap. And guess what? Things just kept on going worse and at the end of WWII half Europe was given to Stalin (that actually initially planned to share it with Hitler, before Hitler's folly screwed up their plan, and was never punished for this, he eventually grabbed what he wanted with UK and USA permission instead).

So an assassination, even with its worst consequences, would just be a lesser bad. In Iran's case it would be necessary to kill the most integralist ayatollahs too, leaving alive the moderate ones, and obviously also the highest ranking pasdaran officers, so a well organized conspiracy would be necessary. But in North Korea, Kim's death would at the very least bring the limited positive effects of Stalin's death in the former USSR.

The thing is, Kim Jong-Il is completely benign and actually pretty laughable. Nobody takes anything he says seriously because under his leadership, North Korea is a poor country with failing infrastructure and an army enormous in size, but with pathetic funding. Every so often, he'll grumble about firing a nuclear missile, but he never will.

Any successors he may have can hardly be more harmless than the crazy old man who leads the country today.

And you can hardly compare him to Stalin. Stalin ruled the second most powerful nation in the world with an iron fist, and tolerated no rebellion or resistance of any kind. People feared him. More than that, people respected him. Kim Jong-Il rules a small poor country with a failing economy, and more people laugh at him than anything else. I can't imagine anyone laughing at Stalin if he said he would use nuclear missiles on the United States.


Maybe he's harmless for the West, but he's even worse than Stalin for his people, he's slowly starving them to death, and not being intelligent as his father, and even less than Stalin, there is a higher risk that he tries something extremely stupid and disastrous. And South Korea is close, even a preemptive nuking would mean decennia of increased tumour rates also in the South (besides killing poor innocent Northern people that have no guilt for having been born in a tragic and ridiculous dictatorship).

So killing Kim now, then sending international aid, is the best solution to save his people.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW! 
 


Alby_da_Wolf said:
Kantor said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:


This is a classic realpolitik reasoning, similar to what prevented France and UK from having Hitler killed asap. And guess what? Things just kept on going worse and at the end of WWII half Europe was given to Stalin (that actually initially planned to share it with Hitler, before Hitler's folly screwed up their plan, and was never punished for this, he eventually grabbed what he wanted with UK and USA permission instead).

So an assassination, even with its worst consequences, would just be a lesser bad. In Iran's case it would be necessary to kill the most integralist ayatollahs too, leaving alive the moderate ones, and obviously also the highest ranking pasdaran officers, so a well organized conspiracy would be necessary. But in North Korea, Kim's death would at the very least bring the limited positive effects of Stalin's death in the former USSR.

The thing is, Kim Jong-Il is completely benign and actually pretty laughable. Nobody takes anything he says seriously because under his leadership, North Korea is a poor country with failing infrastructure and an army enormous in size, but with pathetic funding. Every so often, he'll grumble about firing a nuclear missile, but he never will.

Any successors he may have can hardly be more harmless than the crazy old man who leads the country today.

And you can hardly compare him to Stalin. Stalin ruled the second most powerful nation in the world with an iron fist, and tolerated no rebellion or resistance of any kind. People feared him. More than that, people respected him. Kim Jong-Il rules a small poor country with a failing economy, and more people laugh at him than anything else. I can't imagine anyone laughing at Stalin if he said he would use nuclear missiles on the United States.


Maybe he's harmless for the West, but he's even worse than Stalin for his people, he's slowly starving them to death, and not being intelligent as his father, and even less than Stalin, there is a higher risk that he tries something extremely stupid and disastrous. And South Korea is close, even a preemptive nuking would mean decennia of increased tumour rates also in the South (besides killing poor innocent Northern people that have no guilt for having been born in a tragic and ridiculous dictatorship).

So killing Kim now, then sending international aid, is the best solution to save his people.


He would be replaced, and North Korea would have even more reasons for hating the west. Remember, the NK people doesn't have any connection with the outside world, they are all brainwashed into believing NK is the best thing ever. And Kim Jong-Il would probably just be replaced with someone just as batshit crazy.

The only way the the insanity of NK could come to an end would be a collapse after Kim Jong Il's death, or a full force invasion. I'd say the best course of action to take is to wait for the former to happen.



I LOVE ICELAND!

Alby_da_Wolf said:
Rath said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:
Rath said:
 


Joking right? Assasinating them would make problems worse, especially in Iran. Iran has a grass roots progressive movement, it's best left alone if it's to flourished. In N.Korea assassinating Kim Jong Il would lead to certain war and hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of deaths.


This is a classic realpolitik reasoning, similar to what prevented France and UK from having Hitler killed asap. And guess what? Things just kept on going worse and at the end of WWII half Europe was given to Stalin (that actually initially planned to share it with Hitler, before Hitler's folly screwed up their plan, and was never punished for this, he eventually grabbed what he wanted with UK and USA permission instead).

So an assassination, even with its worst consequences, would just be a lesser bad. In Iran's case it would be necessary to kill the most integralist ayatollahs too, leaving alive the moderate ones, and obviously also the highest ranking pasdaran officers, so a well organized conspiracy would be necessary. But in North Korea, Kim's death would at the very least bring the limited positive effects of Stalin's death in the former USSR.


Stalin wasn't assassinated. Kim Jong Ils natural death (which probably isn't far off) will hopefully be good for N.Korea, assassination almost certainly wouldn't be, it would be a very legitimate casus belli.

Also you think there would be any moderate ayatollahs left after you assassinate half of them? They'll all become radicals.

I know Stalin died for a stroke and most probably left to die (but back then doctors could have done very little anyway) and what's curious, lower classes mourned him sincerely until his crimes were fully revealed. OTOH North Koreans are almost starving to death and I'm quite sure they wouldn't mind if somebody accelerated Kim's departure.

You think it's the ordinary N.Korean that matters in this? It's the establishment and especially the army.  They won't simply relinquish power because Il is dead.

Moderate ayatollahs aren't stupid, and seeing the integralist ones killed while they were spared, they'd be quite quick to understand that the wind has changed.

If somebody went and shot all the conservatives in the senate of the USA do you think the liberals would say 'Oh what a lovely chance to get a progressive agenda through!'? Same situation basically.

BTW using Austrian rifles, besides their superior quality, is also to avoid a possible direct link to USA. Anyway, it would be better to outsource operations to Mossad, integralists couldn't by any means hate Israel more than now...   

It wouldn't matter who did it, the shit-storm would be similiar.





So.. no boom. I guess he was just all talk.



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Kantor said:

This is the most hilarious thing I have ever seen:

http://www.korea-dpr.com/reunification.htm


Oh I know.

The North Korean Government website is FANTASTIC!!! It's practically comedic gold.



starcraft - Playing Games = FUN, Talking about Games = SERIOUS

Alby_da_Wolf said:


Maybe he's harmless for the West, but he's even worse than Stalin for his people, he's slowly starving them to death, and not being intelligent as his father, and even less than Stalin, there is a higher risk that he tries something extremely stupid and disastrous. And South Korea is close, even a preemptive nuking would mean decennia of increased tumour rates also in the South (besides killing poor innocent Northern people that have no guilt for having been born in a tragic and ridiculous dictatorship).

So killing Kim now, then sending international aid, is the best solution to save his people.

Aid is not the best solution. The food simply goes to his army, while the people starve.

The best solution is engagement with his people. South Korean propoganda has a great policy 'Come And See'. I think working with China to pressure them to become more capitalistic would be better, too. China may be authoritarian, but they don't let their people starve like the DPRK does.

Formalized, real trade would do wonders for North Korea, just like Cuba. When the well-fed westerners flood in, the people will realize that good 'ol Kim Jong Il is a turd.



Back from the dead, I'm afraid.

mrstickball said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:


Maybe he's harmless for the West, but he's even worse than Stalin for his people, he's slowly starving them to death, and not being intelligent as his father, and even less than Stalin, there is a higher risk that he tries something extremely stupid and disastrous. And South Korea is close, even a preemptive nuking would mean decennia of increased tumour rates also in the South (besides killing poor innocent Northern people that have no guilt for having been born in a tragic and ridiculous dictatorship).

So killing Kim now, then sending international aid, is the best solution to save his people.

Aid is not the best solution. The food simply goes to his army, while the people starve.

The best solution is engagement with his people. South Korean propoganda has a great policy 'Come And See'. I think working with China to pressure them to become more capitalistic would be better, too. China may be authoritarian, but they don't let their people starve like the DPRK does.

Formalized, real trade would do wonders for North Korea, just like Cuba. When the well-fed westerners flood in, the people will realize that good 'ol Kim Jong Il is a turd.


Problem is when S.Korea tried to do pretty much that (have real trade) N.Korea made it politically untenable for them to continue doing so.



starcraft said:
Kantor said:

This is the most hilarious thing I have ever seen:

http://www.korea-dpr.com/reunification.htm


Oh I know.

The North Korean Government website is FANTASTIC!!! It's practically comedic gold.

Don't North Koreans not have access to the internet, though? Who, exactly, are they trying to target with that website?



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

Rath said:
Alby_da_Wolf said:

[...]

I know Stalin died for a stroke and most probably left to die (but back then doctors could have done very little anyway) and what's curious, lower classes mourned him sincerely until his crimes were fully revealed. OTOH North Koreans are almost starving to death and I'm quite sure they wouldn't mind if somebody accelerated Kim's departure.

1) You think it's the ordinary N.Korean that matters in this? It's the establishment and especially the army.  They won't simply relinquish power because Il is dead.

Moderate ayatollahs aren't stupid, and seeing the integralist ones killed while they were spared, they'd be quite quick to understand that the wind has changed.

2) If somebody went and shot all the conservatives in the senate of the USA do you think the liberals would say 'Oh what a lovely chance to get a progressive agenda through!'? Same situation basically.

BTW using Austrian rifles, besides their superior quality, is also to avoid a possible direct link to USA. Anyway, it would be better to outsource operations to Mossad, integralists couldn't by any means hate Israel more than now...   

3) It wouldn't matter who did it, the shit-storm would be similiar.




1) Italians were mostly fascist, although the majority quite lukewarm. Defeats, deaths and hunger made a lot of them change their mind even before Mussolini's death. And in NK hunger is even worse than in Italy at WWII times. Commoners, particularly ueducated lower classes, can be brainwashed, but their bellies will always be stronger when it's empty.

2) and 3) Some American conservatives may be a bunch of narrow minded bigots, but they haven't established a theocracy disguised as an elective democracy that actually has its powers subordinated to religious authorities approval. So there's no need to shoot them, and it would be pointless anyway as their successors would reflect the electors' will like they did. Ayatollahs OTOH aren't the elected part of Iran's power, and anyway local support of moderate forces would be needed for a conspiracy so wide, most probably including, although not directly involving them, the moderate ayatollahs themselves. When Khomeini overthrew the Shah he was still allied with moderate and democrat Iranians, then he seized the power and got rid of their leaders, also using false accusations of corruption, a typical tactic bigots and moralists use to stir common people's hostility towards their opponents. There are a lot of Iranians waiting for revenge and for the true democracy they wanted instead of the Shah. Overthrowing a quite progressive, although despotic and nepotist, monarch to replace him with a bloodthirsty bigot tyrant wasn't a big deal and it wasn't by any means what many Iranians wanted. And shit must happen sometimes, in Iran and NK it will surely happen sooner or later, so better make it happen before it furtherly grows.



Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly! (Pontius Pilate, "Life of Brian")
A fart without stink is like a sky without stars.
TGS, Third Grade Shooter: brand new genre invented by Kevin Butler exclusively for Natal WiiToo Kinect. PEW! PEW-PEW-PEW!