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Forums - General - Common misconceptions about Christianity.

garvey0 said:
richardhutnik said:
garvey0 said:
 

I've enjoyed reading your posts in this thread and I know you stated that you didn't want to discuss this further on the board, and I don't need for you to respond to this.  I just wanted to loosely base my post off of this particular paragraph that you wrote.  I think you bring up some valid points and remind us that we need to put the scriptures above these more modern analogies we've created.

I, too, am not totally comfortable with the whole "judicial" focused view.  However, I do believe that that view and your view are essentially the same yet the language is adjusted to appeal to different cultural bents and personality types.

I agree that God didn't have to sacrifice Jesus in order to forgive our sins, but He chose to do it that way for a number of reasons.  Keep in mind, Jesus Himself did state that he was giving Himself "as a ransom for the life of the world."  Furthermore, Isaiah states: "He was pierced for our transgressions, He was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon Him, and by His wounds we are healed."  Also, the fact that the guilty jesus barabbas was released and the innocent Jesus of nazereth was crucified was a clear living metaphor from God to demonstrate Jesus dying in the guilty man's place.  They even had the same first name.  However, I do agree with you in your discomfort regarding the whole thing characterized as some sort of legal loophole.  I just think that it is one of many characterizations that appeal to certain people's understanding.  As long as the message is getting out there that Jesus gave His life so that we could live, I can tolerate a number of different illustrations even if I personally find them to be slightly flawed in the analogy they make.

The important thing is that we don't rely too heavily on these analogies and go back to the Bible which is the source material for all of these doctrines.

I am of the belief that, from a Protestant perspective, if you start to move away from Reform Theology and end up doing the Evangelical selective sampling, you lose things.  I may not agree with the total depravity that Reform Theology speaks of (it considers people dung piles who are only seen as righteous, because God looks at Jesus instead of them), but I will say at least it attempts to account for everything related to salvation, even if it is more tidy than how real life works.  Also, there is an obsession in the West to turn people to be like Adam again, and return to the Garden.  I believe that Eastern Orthodox Theology, which didn't get shaped by Augustine, doesn't go down this path.  The East isn't about returning to the Garden, but to advance forward into the Kingdom, and something new, and fullfill the Law as it was written, in ways that matter that God wanted.  My take is everyone is born as Adam, with maybe some defects, but natural like Adam.  There is the curse of existence here, and natural people have a hard time making it.   I believe the East identifies salvation as not restoring to Adam, but Theosis, which is to become more like God (Reform theology this would be glorification).

There is a judicial side of things in it.  It is just the west is HEAVILY judicial in its view of things.  In the evangelical form of the Christian faith, this is what it preaches, and then you get this pardon.  From there, you and Jesus are best buds forever.  I do wonder, when Jesus and the person who has a "personal relationship" with him go out for lunch, who picks up the tab.  Of course, one does a bunch of scriptural distortion to end up making the Bible say this.  It is selective sampling of texts to make it so.  The American form of evangelical Christianity makes it also a personal thing and nor corporate (forgetting the where two or three are gathered in my name).  The idea there is a corporate form of knowing Jesus is foreign.  This shows how there has been a cultural bias put on theology. Without tradition, and saying "this is what we always have had" and able to trace its origins, and the why, you get this.  This goes for the prosperity gospel and others to.

Ok, let me give you my take on this (my as in this is what I hold now).  The whole entire death and resurrection of Christ acted as collateral to insure that what God wanted to done in the form of the New Testament, and the Church.  God trusts this to Jesus, and is able to forgive the debt, because the promise of righteousness through Christ is made it possible.  The resurrection is a showing that death has been overcome, there is a newness here.

A reason why I had said not here is because what I write on really is foreign to people here.  And when I am seeing someone write that they think people who believe there is a God have screws loose, you don't exactly have a friendly audience.  Anyhow, I do write this because the thread was about what Christianity is about, and that lends to theology being discuss.  It is up for each person to decide for themselves if what I write reflects what the Christian faith is, and then whether or not it is true.  I believe the former can be arrived at.  As for the later, it would depend on what one trusts as a canon to measure things by, and how it lines up.


I confess I'm not very familiar with the eastern orthodox church or their theology, for some reason I always figured that it was extremely similar to roman catholicism. It was interesting reading what you've written and I'd like to look more into it.  I'm actually in the process of reading augustine's "Confessions."  Obviously his views are based on God's dealings in his own life, and honestly I can relate to almost everything he says.  However, due to his heavy emphasis in some theological areas and lack of emphasis in others, I do think it's a mistake to write church doctrines that are too heavily influenced by him.

I agree that looking back on traditions and figuring out why we have some of these ideas is extremely important, and it's also important compare these traditional views to what scripture actually says.  I truly believe that this comparison can be done in an unbiased fashion by people who are truly motived to honor God and not their own particular heritage.  It seems that you've already demonstrated this by shifting through different schools of thought in Christianity based on what you thought to actually be true.  I was raised in a non-religious catholic family, didn't believe in God for most of my young life and even since I've become a believer I've adjusted some of my ideas based on Biblical study.

Anyway, I think that you, thanny (the original author of this thread,) the other Christians who posted in this thread, and myself are on the same page for the most part even though we seem to disagree very slightly.  I'm glad you posted because it gives an alternative explanation for some people who have troubling relating to some of the wording they've heard used by Christians.

My take is that the Bible is a bit like "Cliff Notes" in regards to religious faith.  It doesn't look to explain everything fully, or intended to be something that people used alone to get all truth.  It was formed in a religious community with a lot of things that were known when addressed (see Paul writing letters to different communities).  In this, without knowing the context of the community, you have gaps.  People end up plugging their own biases in the gaps and reach different conclusions.  Are the notes enough to get the basics down?  I think the command about loving neighbors and loving God are there and cover it from a Christian perspective.  But, the rest is not there.



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pearljammer said:

I really do hate getting involved in debates about religions, but I'm genuinely curious about something.

In the case where God had punished this particular man by allowing his neighbour to have his way with his wife, does God pretty much strip the (apparently?) innocent woman of her free will and has her raped by another man? I'm unsure how anyone could accept that simply as chaulking it up to context?

Fighting barbarism with barbarism. It's a rather ineffective and primitive line of thinking if your goal is to change behaviour. Even if I'd believed that God existed, this'd be something far too ridiculous for me to think that a benevolent being had decided.

My intention isn't to come off as confrontational, just curious if what I had based my judgments on are accurate or not. The rest are just my thoughts based on my interpretation of what I'd read, there's no need to feel compelled to respond to it.

Ok, let's look at cultural context and so on.  Understand the time period the text was written, and to whom.  Take 20th century sensibilities and apply them on there.  People wouldn't respond, and women wouldn't get any sense of liberation then at all.  It just wouldn't happen. 

Secondarily, you are very likely modern and western in your thinking, and you think in terms of people as individual agents and likely operate under the concept of rights, and think of personal freedom.  Well, that is just one mindset.  There is also a tribal mindset to, where people are judged by who they belong with, and everything is by group identity.  This is the mindset seen in the Old Testament, and things would seem to be barbaric to people now was how people thought then.  Now, the question is whether or not a tribal thinking is wrong.  Is it more wrong than people not thinking of themselves as belonging to any particularly group, and deciding they need to relate to others.  In that set, who cares for the least of those in a group? 

Beyond here, look at how things actually work.  Individuals do things, but nations tend to rise and fall as entities, not as individuals.  Communities suffere collectively, and you see families bear similar attributes and have similar values, and they all go through the same... just because they are members of the group.



garvey0 said:
kergeten said:
Well everything that's bad from Christianity comes from the old testament, and most people who make this world a living hell for others do it in the name of the OT, people just pick and choose what they like. Also, god according to you is not all knowing as all Christians say, and it's one thing to change your laws to new circumstances, it's another to make up absurd laws  and commit genocidal actions, especially when this god of yours is omnipotent. Every situation in the bible where god acted denotes a weak, jelous , fearful and tyrannical god, even a 5 year old can come up with better solutions to every problem in the bible in the context of omnipotence, not to mention omniscience.

I agree with you that people often pick and choose what they like out of the old testament, but picking and choosing what they like is a reflection of their own destructive personalities.  If they choose to willingly ignore the context of the religion and have no interest in seeking out the true context, then the religion itself cannot be blamed because these people had pre-determined motives and are simply creating justifications anywhere they can find them.

I think what he meant to say was (and if he didn't it's a point worth making) that some considerably sized groups are that way, not just individuals. 



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richardhutnik said:
pearljammer said:
 

I really do hate getting involved in debates about religions, but I'm genuinely curious about something.

In the case where God had punished this particular man by allowing his neighbour to have his way with his wife, does God pretty much strip the (apparently?) innocent woman of her free will and has her raped by another man? I'm unsure how anyone could accept that simply as chaulking it up to context?

Fighting barbarism with barbarism. It's a rather ineffective and primitive line of thinking if your goal is to change behaviour. Even if I'd believed that God existed, this'd be something far too ridiculous for me to think that a benevolent being had decided.

My intention isn't to come off as confrontational, just curious if what I had based my judgments on are accurate or not. The rest are just my thoughts based on my interpretation of what I'd read, there's no need to feel compelled to respond to it.

Secondarily, you are very likely modern and western in your thinking, and you think in terms of people as individual agents and likely operate under the concept of rights, and think of personal freedom.  Well, that is just one mindset.  There is also a tribal mindset to, where people are judged by who they belong with, and everything is by group identity.  This is the mindset seen in the Old Testament, and things would seem to be barbaric to people now was how people thought then.  Now, the question is whether or not a tribal thinking is wrong.  Is it more wrong than people not thinking of themselves as belonging to any particularly group, and deciding they need to relate to others.  In that set, who cares for the least of those in a group?

I'm cognizant to the fact that there were different mindsets at that time and applying our values and morals is useless. For instance take many modern day tragedies: women's status in the Democratic Republic of Congo. The UN promotes their values of equality with little progress. The UN, however, are not benevolent; nor are they a god.

I simply cannot imagine a benevolent entity 'giving' a woman to another man as punishment of her husband's deeds. Perhaps in the context of the time, where women were likely seen as property, it would have been seen as a justifible punishment delivered by a human authority, but surely not a benevolent god?

As to the second part of your post: I think that may be oversimplifying things. A tribal mindset, as you define it, is not wrong. However, if there is inequality in that group where both women and children are treated as property, then yes, I'd say it is wrong. Would it seem absurd for a benevolent being, claiming to love all equaly, to accomodate such a mindset? I think so.

I can certainly appreciate that punisments would have to be accomodated to match any particular culture or time period, but these are changes in core values (to the being as well as the society), it would seem. I suppose what I'm trying to say is that I can understand the changing of punishments, however, I fail to how how one's values can simply be adjusted to the times, or the 'context.' I can't imagine a god's moral authority being sp thin and malleable.

Again, I hope I'm not coming off as abrasive or anything. It's not my intention.



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Last edited by garvey0 - on 05 August 2022

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Last edited by garvey0 - on 05 August 2022

garvey0 said:
 

Well put.

I'd also like to clarify a misconception regarding 2 Samuel 12:11...I believe it was specifically referring to David's son Absalom rebelling against him and stealing the kingdom from him.  When this happened, Absalom also took David's wives though there is no evidence in the text that raped them.  I think that God pointing this out specifically was meant to powerfully communicate to David that the things that he loved most were going to be taken from him.

You may be thinking "don't the women get a say in this?"  In a perfect world they would get say, but humans had already warped the culture so far from what God had intended and instead of snapping his fingers and making things perfect again He decided to let people learn from the consequences of their mistakes and also provide us a text in which we can learn from their mistakes.  

As a sidenote, my humble guess would be that David's wives who'd been given over to Absalom probably did not feel violated due to their cultural conditioning.  Should they have felt violated and objectified by having to switch husbands? Yes.  Were they violated and objectified having to switch husbands? Yes.  But for whatever it's worth I doubt if they did, especially considering that they were king's wives and lived in royal luxury.


Yes, but what I'm asking is: are God's values so fickle, that they change according to the culture and mindsets of the times?

First underlined - They weren't God's to take. If the women who he created equally, had committed no sin, regardless of the time, should not be punished for another person's sin. A benevolent being would not do that, for it simply isn't a benevolent act.

Second underlined - An omnipotent, benevolent being surely would have methods of dealing with such crises far beyond our understanding that wouldn't involve punishing or deciding the lives of innocents.

Third underlined - That irrelevant here though. Regardless of their ignorance to their mistreatment, they were mistreated. They were treated as property of men as is often the case. If this is against the values of a benevolent being, and I mean core values of a god, surely they wouldn't treat it as water under the bridge as a result of troubling times.

Edit:

Imagine these poor women when they had died:

They arrive at heaven and ask God, "to which man would we serve?" "Do not be foolish, my children. You are free. You belong to nobody, you are your own." Clearly the women would be baffled as God himself had traded them in life as if they were property. One of the women would speak up - "But you, yourself, had acknowledged us as property of men in our lifes" "Water under the bridge, my love" He responded, "water under the bridge."

Obviously the conversation wouldn't occur anything like that. But according to what I'm reading, it's essentially what had happened. I find it simply absurd.



thanny said:

There are a couple of things that have been mentioned in the creation thread (and also, things that i have heard before in quite a few places) that i think need to be cleared up. I am sure that many of you are aware of this, or do not care. I am also sure that there are some people that need to learn some more before they argue about Christianity...


I take my hat off to you for your efforts.  Yes, Christianity is NOT about deeds.  Simply put I do good works because I am saved, not to be saved.  That's the bottom line.  Example: If you do not like football, you're not going to follow or play the game unless there is some other ulterior motive.  But if you love football, you'll keep up with it for the love of the game, not because you have to ut because you WANT to.  The difference here is that NO ONE loves God because NO ONE want to live by a set of rules that "impose" on our lifestyles.  But when we actually understand how awesome he is, we'd want to "keep up" with his "game."  And this understanding only come when he reaches out to us.  Otherwise, we'd have nothing to do with him.  So I observe his law not to live a regimental strict live.  I observe his law because I'm understanding more and more how beautiful it is which allows me more freedom before I knew the Christ.  Jesus knew how to enjoy a smooth beer and a fine steak without getting drunk and being gluttonous.  Some of us here cannot help but to get drunk and to eat til we're sick.  Two of my favorite game genres are survival/horror and magic based RPG's.  The principles behind these genres are by no means Biblical, but because I keep what's fantasy in fantasy not allowing it to run my life is very acceptable in Christianity.  Some of us are so feuled by these games that life would be meaningless without them.  It's the spirit of the law that gives freedom, and the only way to understand this is to have the Holy Spirt in your lives through the accepting of the sacrifice of the Son.  Otherwise as long as you view Christianity as a set of oppressive laws, you do NOT understand Christianity.  From a humanist standpoint, you can blame that on those who have abused Christianity.  So don't criticize, but a constructive debate should always be welcomed.  For those of you who are curious, I tend to lean more toward a Calvinist/Reformed point fo view.



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I think when humans can effectively, on their own, be moral and upright, and show mercy and compassion, and actually do what is right, then maybe there will be able to be in a place to try to say God of the Old Testament is evil, and question this and that.  Why do I say this?  Simply because the human mind, and all its schemes, has failed to produce any sort of system that cares for the weak and the powerless, and also doesn't become tyranical.  We can say that modern society is the pinacle of being moral, but is it?  Look at the STD rate in certain populations of American society.  Look at the state of discontent also about.  And you want me to give you some chuckles?  Check out the reactions to this video by the ICP:

It is called "Miracles".  And guess the backlash it generated by people out there, and the mock and ridicule it generated.  Pure bile, because of ONE line it says about scientists, and asked how magnets worked (saying we really don't know).  You see, in this modern and secular society, you are NOT to question the limitations of science.  You are NOT to be religions.  You are not to see wonder in the mundane.  You are also not to question the high priests who are the architects all around us, that being the scientists.  Nope, don't do it, you will be subject to ridicule.  And all along, no one can figure out why people can't be happy, and why the use of drugs for mood management is at an all-time high.  Nope, just reduce men to machines, and determinstic processes, and figure it out.  And then have it so that you have a welfare system that is less humane than the DMV clean up all the abandoned humanity and medicate them into silence.

Anyhow, once people figure this all out, and people then can understand how things work and do it in reality, then maybe one can begin to make sense out of what went on in the Old Testament.