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Forums - Sony Discussion - Why people are overestimating the Wii's life time sales

PS-She on 04 December 2007
mancandy said:
Dammit Bod...I know we agree.... and where's my love letter?

The point I am trying to make is that people are saying that the Wii controller has too few buttons and is an inadequate controller for "traditional" games, and I am saying otherwise.

So by corrolary you think it is adequate for all types of games? How would it handle almost any game that required the constant use of 6 or more buttons?

It is an inadequate controller for certain types of games. Also, the number of inputs is skewed as some conflict with each other. Good luck swinging the Wiimote while trying to keep your pointer stationary for example.



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windbane on 04 December 2007
Bodhesatva said:

I think Windbane is largely correct here; the graphical requirements and controller style will vary from genre to genre, game to game. For example, I think most RPGs can be played with fewer buttons, as can Grand Theft Auto style games, but MMOs, RTS and fighting games all require more. Some genres use motion sensitivity well (sports, FPS) some don't (fighting games). Some genres really benefit from improved graphics (FPS, Racing sim) some don't benefit much at all (outside of FF XIII, most RPGs are sticking with an anime style, for example).

It just depends on the genre and the style of game. The Wii was clearly intended to make games simpler to understand and easier to play -- crying "it doesn't have enough buttons!" is equivalent to saying "The Wii design philosophy is wrong!" Perhaps it's not right for you, but clearly lots of other people prefer the Wii's control scheme and gaming philosophy.

Personally, I like the Wii Remote for simpler, casual stuff, and I like the Keyboard/Mouse for more complex fare. I could easily turn this "Wiimote doesn't have enough buttons" argument right back at the PS3/360 controller; I absolutely laugh at the notion of playing an MMORPG on any of the three controllers, because all of them don't have enough buttons. 15-20 buttons just isn't coming close to cutting it in modern MMO design. So how many buttons is enough buttons? Is there a point where we say "this is too much, we should have less?" Obviously, for many people, the answer is "yes there are too many buttons, not just on the keyboard, but even on the traditional controller," and it is those people for whom the Wii Remote was designed.


I definitely agree that it depends on the game type.  I do wonder how FFXI controls with a gamepad, though.  I don't think it would be that bad, since Oblivion is basically an MMO-type game with 1 person.  Keyboard/mouse is definitely better for that as you said.

Back to my main point, and I'm sorry if others have responded as I'm going down the list in order:  the controls are certainly unique if not really revolutionary on the Wii, and it will certainly help when compared to gamepads with lots of game types.  I have no doubt about that.  However, I feel like the controls are about equal overall and that the Wii is stuck with the CPU and GPU it has.   That's all.  I feel like that's only part of the reason that people are overestimating the Wii's sales, but obviously others are still of the opinion that the Wii will dominate.

I know about a lot of games that the 360 and PS3 will have early next year and on, but I've not heard many big announcements for the Wii.  Perhaps Kingdom Hearts 3 will be one of those.  The guy working on FFXII: Versus is the lead Kingdom Hearts guy, though, so I'm not sure why he would step back down to the Wii.  I guess we'll see, though.

As a Wii owner, I look forward to this stream of games that people keep saying will take a few more years.  I guess we won't know until then.  You'd think some of those games would be announced, though, considering all of the others that have been in the last several months for the PS3 and 360. 



windbane on 04 December 2007
Bodhesatva said:

I think my message is getting a bit muddled here. Let me state it simply, so that I'm clearly understood:

No control mechanism will ever be the best for all games and for all genres.

There's no question in my mind that the Wii Remote excels in lots of areas; I hope no one will deny this. Trauma Center and Cooking Mama alone should prove this -- these genres are effectively impossible on traditional controllers. Not just "less good," but impossible.

Similarly, some games and genres will simply continue to be better controlled by a traditional controller, or by something else. PS-She has correctly identified the most common issue; buttons. If a game requires lots of unique actions with tons of different button presses, something that has a ton of buttons will obviously be better than the Wii Remote.

In other words, the Wii-haters should admit here that the Wii Remote does have some excellent uses, and opens up a lot of gameplay possibilities that simply weren't possible before; conversely, those who love the Wii (such as myself) should admit that the Wii Remote isn't literally the best for every game.

That's it! Is that so hard?


Agreed.  The point is that neither has a clear advantage.  The person that brought up GT5 has a good point about a wheel being the best option for that game type, but it would still be better to use the Sixaxis for that than the Wiimote.  FPS is better with the wiimote than the sixaxis (if done as well as MoH: H2), but mouse/keyboard is admittedly better judging by reviews.  Yes, you have to pay for at least a $10 mouse and a $10 keyboard (at least that's what I did waiting for good deals), but you also have to get a gamecube and/or classic controller for the Wii, as I also had to do.  To me, it evens out control-wise.

Obivously, some will like certain control schemes more than others, but you can't argue that the Wii doesn't have disadvantages over the other 2 consoles.  Whoever said the online was the best on the Wii really needs to clear that up for me, because it seems to me that Nintendo barely cares about the internet.  They are charging me for a browser just because I got my Wii too late!  Pay for a browser?!  Wow. 

 



windbane on 04 December 2007
Gamerace said:
The entire point of the Wiimote was to make games seem easier so that more people would play them. Nintendo was alsolutely right that the modern controller has gotten too complex for the masses. It suits a shrinking demographic, and that demographic alone.

Is the wiimote ideal for all game types? No. However, that's because a lot of these games were designed around the PS2 type controller or in the case of fighters, the arcade machines. You could flip it around to say games like RRR work best on the Wiimote, why? Because it was designed for that.

That's not to say a fighter could never work on Wii, it just needs to be re-envisioned with the wii controls. Same with all other game types. PES is a great example of a developer taking the Wii controls and using it to enhance the game instead of tacking them on.

Also Wii controls allows for new types of gameplay, and that's what interests me. I've done FPS for decades. YAWN. Old news to me, I don't care how pretty it looks anymore. Give me something new. I'd sooner play Zack & Wiki or Dewy instead of CoD4 or Halo 3. That's a personal choice of course, but Nintendo decided to target the masses and not the small group playing those games. Yes, that group is huge in the context of current game players, but tiny in comparison to the total consumer market.

I hate to break this to you, but Zack and Wiki is just a point-and-click adventure, one of the earliest game genres. Also, it clearly didn't target the masses very well.

I'd love to see a fighting game reimagined for only the Wiimote, though, but I think it would compromise the best control scheme.



windbane on 04 December 2007
leo-j said:
Rath said:
leo-j said:
The ps3 controls > wii controls.

Why?

ps2 controller

six axis

mouse + keyboard

Then Wii controls > PS3 controls, why?

GC controller + Wiimote + Nunchuck + Balance Board + Classic controller.

We are only talking about main controls here I think.


ps2 controller > GC controller

wii mote > six axis

Balance board < PS EYE

classic controller < Mouse + keyboard


I'd have to agree here. 



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endurance on 04 December 2007
leo-j said:
Rath said:
leo-j said:
The ps3 controls > wii controls.

Why?

ps2 controller

six axis

mouse + keyboard

 Then Wii controls > PS3 controls, why?

GC controller + Wiimote + Nunchuck + Balance Board + Classic controller.

We are only talking about main controls here I think. 


ps2 controller > GC controller

wii mote > six axis

Balance board < PS EYE

classic controller < Mouse + keyboard


thats how it pretty much is except i havent tried the balance board and the PS eye



bdbdbd on 04 December 2007

@Windbane: That would be me about the online. What i was meaning, was the ease to use it. For example, the Wii forecast channel is great. If i need to know the forecast, i don't check it from my TV or my computer, i use forecast channel. It's the easiest and fastest way. The news channel, every other online stuff Wii has. It's a lot more than 360 or PS3 has. Anyway, i was targeting that to the non-gamers.
I agree that the internet browser should come for free, but in the other hand, if you want to play in Live...
That controller comparision Leo made, was pretty stupid and cherry picking.
GC controller>DS2
Wii Remote+nunchuck>Sixaxis
Wii Remote+nunchuck>KB+mouse
Balance Board=PS Eye
Classic Controller



Ei Kiinasti.

Eikä Japanisti.

Vaan pannaan jalalla koreasti.

 

Nintendo games sell only on Nintendo system.

mancandy on 04 December 2007
PS-She said:
mancandy said:
Dammit Bod...I know we agree.... and where's my love letter?

The point I am trying to make is that people are saying that the Wii controller has too few buttons and is an inadequate controller for "traditional" games, and I am saying otherwise.

So by corrolary you think it is adequate for all types of games? How would it handle almost any game that required the constant use of 6 or more buttons?

It is an inadequate controller for certain types of games. Also, the number of inputs is skewed as some conflict with each other. Good luck swinging the Wiimote while trying to keep your pointer stationary for example.        

 

No, it's not the best tool for all jobs, just like the SIXAXIS and 360 controllers are not adequate for all games. I suppose you did't read my little thing about MP3 on the previous page...the Wii controller can handle games that need 6 buttons easily.

You're right, it is ineadequate for certain games, just like the SIXAXIS and 360 controllers. Try swinging the Wiimote while trying to keep my pointer stationary??? You have not witnessed my MP3 greatness :)

 

 



Wii Code 8761-5941-4718-0078 

windbane on 04 December 2007
bdbdbd said:
@Windbane: That would be me about the online. What i was meaning, was the ease to use it. For example, the Wii forecast channel is great. If i need to know the forecast, i don't check it from my TV or my computer, i use forecast channel. It's the easiest and fastest way. The news channel, every other online stuff Wii has. It's a lot more than 360 or PS3 has. Anyway, i was targeting that to the non-gamers.
I agree that the internet browser should come for free, but in the other hand, if you want to play in Live...
That controller comparision Leo made, was pretty stupid and cherry picking.
GC controller>DS2
Wii Remote+nunchuck>Sixaxis
Wii Remote+nunchuck>KB+mouse
Balance Board=PS Eye
Classic Controller

@Bod: I have to go with mancandy on this one. If the game is designed to be used with certain controller, it propably is the best controller for the game. The reason why you have so many shortcuts in wow, is because from certain elements the game is designed to so complex, that you need those buttons to make it easier. What would Wario Ware be with keyboard and mouse? And besides, easy shortcut with Wii would be similar to vizor change in MP3. It definately would be a lot easier, since you wouldn't need to learn all the "hotkeys".

@PS She: I can see you're not familiar with Metroid Prime 3, the swinging while pointing works perfectly in that game. The trick is, that you don't need to swing the Wii Remote, you use the nunchuck.

You are hyping a news and weather feature, though.  I find google news much easier to use, and weather is just as easy to check on weather.com instead of turning on my Wii.  Games are what matter, and Nintendo's online feature set there is worse than PS2 right now.  Hopefully things will improve, but the online features of the Wii are definitely limited.

As far as features, Gamecube controller is the same as Dualshock 2.  I happen to thing the GC controller is a bad design, but it serves the same purpose.  Wiimote/nunchuck is only better at certain game types than a six axis, and only better at certain game types than a keyboard/mouse, and FPS is not one of those.  Overall, dualshock 3/keyboard/mouse is better than wiimote/nunchuck because they best serve more game types.

PS Eye tracks your entire body and is therefore much better than the Wii board.  The Wii Board could not be used for Eye of Judgement or to catch a soccer ball.  The PS Eye could be used to head-butt soccer balls and track pushups if that's really what you want to do with a game system.

Classic controller = useless, unless you really must have symmetric button layout like every other controller has (which is why I got one). 

 

The main point remains:  you can argue about control schemes but not about graphical and processing power. 



Girl Gamer Elite on 04 December 2007

The PS Eye, like most selling points for the PS3, is impressive only in what it potentially can do, not what it has done thus far.

While the Wii and its peripherals may seem unremarkable and for the most part are, they manage to make enough people happy to make them and the Wii successes.

Split hairs all you like, it's not going to change the fact of which console is selling better or appeals to the larger demographic of consumers.