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Forums - Sony Discussion - Why people are overestimating the Wii's life time sales

mancandy on 04 December 2007
PS-She said:
Bodhesatva said:

I think Windbane is largely correct here; the graphical requirements and controller style will vary from genre to genre, game to game. For example, I think most RPGs can be played with fewer buttons, as can Grand Theft Auto style games, but MMOs, RTS and fighting games all require more. Some genres use motion sensitivity well (sports, FPS) some don't (fighting games). Some genres really benefit from improved graphics (FPS, Racing sim) some don't benefit much at all (outside of FF XIII, most RPGs are sticking with an anime style, for example).

It just depends on the genre and the style of game. The Wii was clearly intended to make games simpler to understand and easier to play -- crying "it doesn't have enough buttons!" is equivalent to saying "The Wii design philosophy is wrong!" Perhaps it's not right for you, but clearly lots of other people prefer the Wii's control scheme and gaming philosophy.

Personally, I like the Wii Remote for simpler, casual stuff, and I like the Keyboard/Mouse for more complex fare. I could easily turn this "Wiimote doesn't have enough buttons" argument right back at the PS3/360 controller; I absolutely laugh at the notion of playing an MMORPG on any of the three controllers, because all of them don't have enough buttons. 15-20 buttons just isn't coming close to cutting it in modern MMO design. So how many buttons is enough buttons? Is there a point where we say "this is too much, we should have less?" Obviously, for many people, the answer is "yes there are too many buttons, not just on the keyboard, but even on the traditional controller," and it is those people for whom the Wii Remote was designed.


I think there's a fair amount of truth in this at least that different genres will naturally take better advantage of some features.  The fact that the most anticipated controller for Super Smash Bros. Brawl is apparently not the Wiimote, but the Gamecube controller is very telling.

Players recognize that the Wiimote is inadequate and developers do as well.

I'll never understand why there are so many Wii owners who refuse to see Nintendo's little innovation has some major flaws in it.

Nice try... the PS3's highly anticipated title Gran Turismo 5 is not played optimally with the SIXAXIS. I would have a better experience with my Logitec Force Feedback Wheel. Seriously, nice try.

The SIXAXIS is an antiquated control device and its age shows.

 



Wii Code 8761-5941-4718-0078 

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Bodhesatva on 04 December 2007
Rath said:
Bodhesatva said:
NJ5 said:

jjseth said:

For the Wii though, there will be certain genres that will just have piss poor controls because of the wiimote


Tell us more about those "certain genres".

 


Fighting games and MMOs are the first two that come to mind, for me.


Why MMOs?

Players recognize that the Wiimote is inadequate and developers do as well.

For certain genres, the only one where it really hurts it (as far as I can think) is fighting games. For other genres, such as sports, FPS and point and click games it makes the game hugely more immersive.


Not enough buttons. Again, playing an MMO without 30+ buttons just isn't a good idea in this day and age.

 



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jjseth on 04 December 2007

Bod speaks truth about those. Can you imagine trying to play Tekken with the Wiimote? Especially when you have to choose between a kick or punch. To make it work right, it seems like they'd have to "dumb down" the game a bit to make it work and it wouldn't be an enjoyable experience.

And MMOs are much easier on a keyboard where you can bind many of the spells/attacks/etc to hotkeys and then use the mouse to aim or turn and do what you need to do. I can see the wiimote just being horrible in that genre.

And not all sports games would be great for the wiimote. Can you imagine how wonderful it would be to play a game like PES on the wii with the wii mote? I think that a lobotomy would be more enjoyable while having a dentist drill my teeth at the same time. The sports games that really benefit are those that use a bat/racket/club where you are primarily standing still and you hit something with an object.



 


Get your Portable ID!

 

My pokemon brings all the nerds to the yard. And they're like, "You wanna trade cards?" Damn right, I wanna trade cards. I'll trade this, but not my charizard.

jjseth on 04 December 2007

And the reason why I don't knock the PS3 for this with MMO's is that you can use a mouse and keyboard if the game is made to support it.



 


Get your Portable ID!

 

My pokemon brings all the nerds to the yard. And they're like, "You wanna trade cards?" Damn right, I wanna trade cards. I'll trade this, but not my charizard.

NJ5 on 04 December 2007
jjseth said:
Bod speaks truth about those. Can you imagine trying to play Tekken with the Wiimote? Especially when you have to choose between a kick or punch. To make it work right, it seems like they'd have to "dumb down" the game a bit to make it work and it wouldn't be an enjoyable experience.

And MMOs are much easier on a keyboard where you can bind many of the spells/attacks/etc to hotkeys and then use the mouse to aim or turn and do what you need to do. I can see the wiimote just being horrible in that genre.

And not all sports games would be great for the wiimote. Can you imagine how wonderful it would be to play a game like PES on the wii with the wii mote? I think that a lobotomy would be more enjoyable while having a dentist drill my teeth at the same time. The sports games that really benefit are those that use a bat/racket/club where you are primarily standing still and you hit something with an object.

So you're saying MMOs are better on the PC than on consoles. Great surprise there...

Regarding PES and SSBB, let's wait to see how these turn out on the Wii. There's a video preview of Wii's PES 2008 in which the controls look great and let you do more stuff than is possible on the 360 and PS3:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ntIz_hA4STM

 



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Bodhesatva on 04 December 2007

I think my message is getting a bit muddled here. Let me state it simply, so that I'm clearly understood:

No control mechanism will ever be the best for all games and for all genres.

There's no question in my mind that the Wii Remote excels in lots of areas; I hope no one will deny this. Trauma Center and Cooking Mama alone should prove this -- these genres are effectively impossible on traditional controllers. Not just "less good," but impossible.

Similarly, some games and genres will simply continue to be better controlled by a traditional controller, or by something else. PS-She has correctly identified the most common issue; buttons. If a game requires lots of unique actions with tons of different button presses, something that has a ton of buttons will obviously be better than the Wii Remote.

In other words, the Wii-haters should admit here that the Wii Remote does have some excellent uses, and opens up a lot of gameplay possibilities that simply weren't possible before; conversely, those who love the Wii (such as myself) should admit that the Wii Remote isn't literally the best for every game.

That's it! Is that so hard?



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mancandy on 04 December 2007
Bodhesatva said:
Rath said:
Bodhesatva said:
NJ5 said:

jjseth said:

For the Wii though, there will be certain genres that will just have piss poor controls because of the wiimote


Tell us more about those "certain genres".

 


Fighting games and MMOs are the first two that come to mind, for me.


Why MMOs?

Players recognize that the Wiimote is inadequate and developers do as well.

For certain genres, the only one where it really hurts it (as far as I can think) is fighting games. For other genres, such as sports, FPS and point and click games it makes the game hugely more immersive.


Not enough buttons. Again, playing an MMO without 30+ buttons just isn't a good idea in this day and age.

 


You guys are going no where with this.

MMO's are best played with a keyboard and mouse.

Driving games are best played with a wheel.

Fighting games are best played with a joystick and 6 buttons.

@jjseth

Uh...the Wii can be made to support a keyboard and mouse. So what's your point?



Wii Code 8761-5941-4718-0078 

Bodhesatva on 04 December 2007
mancandy said:
Bodhesatva said:
Rath said:
Bodhesatva said:
NJ5 said:

jjseth said:

For the Wii though, there will be certain genres that will just have piss poor controls because of the wiimote


Tell us more about those "certain genres".

 


Fighting games and MMOs are the first two that come to mind, for me.


Why MMOs?

Players recognize that the Wiimote is inadequate and developers do as well.

For certain genres, the only one where it really hurts it (as far as I can think) is fighting games. For other genres, such as sports, FPS and point and click games it makes the game hugely more immersive.


Not enough buttons. Again, playing an MMO without 30+ buttons just isn't a good idea in this day and age.

 


You guys are going no where with this.

MMO's are best played with a keyboard and mouse.

Driving games are best played with a wheel.

Fighting games are best played with a joystick and 6 buttons.

@jjseth

Uh...the Wii can be made to support a keyboard and mouse. So what's your point?


I agree with everything you just said. I was not implying the traditional controller is best for these, just implying that the Wii Remote wasn't the best, either. In fact, I specifically said this in several posts in this thread.



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NJ5 on 04 December 2007

Bod is right. Certain games will always require alternative controllers. But it's laughable to say or imply that the Wiimote has "major flaws" just because it's not the best alternative for every game.

Learn about tradeoffs, people. SSBB will have four types of controls so that people can balance the tradeoffs for themselves.

 



My Mario Kart Wii friend code: 2707-1866-0957

Gamerace on 04 December 2007

The entire point of the Wiimote was to make games seem easier so that more people would play them. Nintendo was alsolutely right that the modern controller has gotten too complex for the masses. It suits a shrinking demographic, and that demographic alone.

Is the wiimote ideal for all game types? No. However, that's because a lot of these games were designed around the PS2 type controller or in the case of fighters, the arcade machines. You could flip it around to say games like RRR work best on the Wiimote, why? Because it was designed for that.

That's not to say a fighter could never work on Wii, it just needs to be re-envisioned with the wii controls. Same with all other game types. PES is a great example of a developer taking the Wii controls and using it to enhance the game instead of tacking them on.

Also Wii controls allows for new types of gameplay, and that's what interests me. I've done FPS for decades. YAWN. Old news to me, I don't care how pretty it looks anymore. Give me something new. I'd sooner play Zack & Wiki or Dewy instead of CoD4 or Halo 3. That's a personal choice of course, but Nintendo decided to target the masses and not the small group playing those games. Yes, that group is huge in the context of current game players, but tiny in comparison to the total consumer market.