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Forums - General Discussion - 9 dead as Israeli forces board Gaza aid Convoy

We should wait a few weeks for more accurate information, as it stands now, Israel controls all the footage from the incident taken by both sides and we can't trust images from one party only.

Also, there is a difference between supporting the population in Gaza and supporting Hamas and I hope people realize that.  Personally, I don't think Israel cares what you think or what methods they deploy, this is the nation that assassinated Sheikh Ahmed Yassin (the Hamas leader in a wheelchair) with a helicopter firing Hellfire missiles in the midst of a morning prayer procession. We're also seeing in all modern conflicts that civilian lives don't matter in the larger scheme of things so this is nothing exceptional (allbeit sad).

Like I said; hold off for a minute until we have some light from more angles shed on this.



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ArnoldRimmer said:
chriscox1121 said:
FootballFan said:
Slimebeast said:

 

 

These are "unarmed humanitarian activists".


Strange. One report I saw said that the civillains all surrendered immiediatly and then the Isreali's open fired upon them whilst they had their hands up. This suggests the opposite.


thank God for video....this doesn't "suggest" it, it "shows" the opposite

It doesn't show the opposite, but it does show that it's not true that the israelis opened fire whilst the activists had their hands up. But I have actually never even heard of a single report claiming that was the case - any sources for that?

By the way, it's not only interesting what we see in this video, what we don't see is interesting as well. Ask yourselves why the IDF only released a very short 1 minute clip from the middle of the action instead of the full video. The obvious answer is that only this part of the video gives the impression the IDF wants.

Or... they released it, because it was the only part relvent to the debunk the claims and the rest would of been pointlessly predjudicial.



Kasz,

 

I can't be bothered to go through every military and police force that doesn't kill civilians as the list is far too large. If you want to talk about Hamas/WW2 start a new thread.

And you missed out a third option. Fire back and not kill civilians.

And a fourth option. Leave the occupied territories so you won't get shot at.



Badassbab said:

Kasz,

 

I can't be bothered to go through every military and police force that doesn't kill civilians as the list is far too large. If you want to talk about Hamas/WW2 start a new thread.

And you missed out a third option. Fire back and not kill civilians.

And a fourth option. Leave the occupied territories so you won't get shot at.


No it isn't... well unless your military is completely inactive and sitting on their asses.  Which isn't exactly possible when side is already shooting at you, rocketing you and using human bombs.   All militaries kill civilians.  It's ignorant to think otherwise.


As for firing back and not shooting at civilians.  It shows your complete and willful ignorance of fighting in a warzone in which guerilla war is taking place.

I mean, you do realize the entire point of terrorist groups like Hamas is that they look EXACTLY like everybody else right? 

In such cases there are only two options for engagement.

1) Don't fire at anybody until you actually see that person fire on you first.  This gives the known hostile group first shot for everbody in absolute terms.  That is clearly unworkable, ESPIECALLY when it comes to terrorist groups willing to give their lives.  Since it allows terrorists to walk right up to you and quite literally put a bullet in a soldiers head from a decent distance.

2) Order everybdody to get down, and shoot those that don't comply.  This will often involve civilian casualties.

 

This isn't even counting all of the other things out of the control of the military that's always going to exist... like...

 

1) Soldiers who are dicks.  They old rape and pillage "war is fun" guys you'll never get rid of entirely.

2) Soldiers who... make a mistake.  I mean afterall their lives are on the freaking line, and guns are fairly eaisly to mistake items from across the room.

3) Soldiers with mental problems from the constant rocket firings.

4) Soldiers with a vendetta because they know somebody who died.

As for leaving the "occupied territories" everytime they do it seems to result in MORE rockets fired.

Palestine should be happy with whatever land they can negotiate after they spit in the face of the UN deal and started a war.

If Israel was really as inhumane as everybody likes to paint them they would of just expelled the losers of the war afterwords.  That was standard operation procedure at the time. 



Tell you what though...

Just name 3 militaries you think haven't killed civilians yet have been active.



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RageBot said:
NNN2004 said:
RageBot said:
NNN2004 said:

 alot of things happend to me because of israel .. as a palestinian that dont have passport i cant enter any country except syria ( which gave me palestinian/ syrian documents so i can travel to some limited countries ) but i cant enter israel !!? and now here in UAE i stuck with my job because iam palestenian which have documents and not passport so the new country rules tell that people with documents cant work here anymore except for the people that already working but you cant change your job !? my uncle found a new job and when he want to transfer his visa they didnt allow him and canceled his visa. and for my cousin ( which he have a palestinian passport ) he didnt see his wife because he stuck for 2 weeks in the borders with other paleastenians between egypt and israel and then they told them that they cant enter gaza .. so thank you israel for ruining my life and my family life.


Don't forget to thank Hamas for killing enough Israelis so that the Israeli government has to do stuff like that.

enough to say that every palestinian family have someone died in it from israel and as for my family we have 3 dead two without any reason and one because he tried to protect his family !?.

And every Israeli knows a soldier who died defending the country, or someone who died during a terrorist attack, sorry.

Wow, you are a very cold hearted person. And I guess you are safe in your nice little home in a nice little city in the states, talking down on someone who lives in hell.

Good for you. A truly great person you are.



Any message from Faxanadu is written in good faith but shall neither be binding nor construed as constituting a commitment by Faxanadu except where provided for in a written agreement signed by an authorized representative of Faxanadu. This message is intended for the use of the forum members only.

The views expressed here may be personal and/or offensive and are not necessarily the views of Faxanadu.

The Israeli soldiers got attacked the moment they landed on that ship.  Defensive action was taken because of it so I'm on Israelis side on this issue.



 

 [IMG]http://i40.tinypic.com/2lxwas9.gif[/IMG]

I actually find it interesting that a country like Israel, so seasoned in intricate politics and an unfriendly environment would fall for such a provokation.



Any message from Faxanadu is written in good faith but shall neither be binding nor construed as constituting a commitment by Faxanadu except where provided for in a written agreement signed by an authorized representative of Faxanadu. This message is intended for the use of the forum members only.

The views expressed here may be personal and/or offensive and are not necessarily the views of Faxanadu.

Faxanadu said:

I actually find it interesting that a country like Israel, so seasoned in intricate politics and an unfriendly environment would fall for such a provokation.


That really is the most interesting part of it.  I wonder what the intellegence chatter leaked suggested.  Probably that their were weapons aboard but the people on board didn't know.

When in reality it was that some of the people on board were what was smuggled on board.



Kasz216 said:
Badassbab said:

Kasz,

 

I can't be bothered to go through every military and police force that doesn't kill civilians as the list is far too large. If you want to talk about Hamas/WW2 start a new thread.

And you missed out a third option. Fire back and not kill civilians.

And a fourth option. Leave the occupied territories so you won't get shot at.


No it isn't... well unless your military is completely inactive and sitting on their asses.  Which isn't exactly possible when side is already shooting at you, rocketing you and using human bombs.   All militaries kill civilians.  It's ignorant to think otherwise.

Your still wording it all wrong. All militaries do not kill innocent civilians. Also Israel collectively punishes the population and knowlingly targets civilians infrastructure with complete disregard for loss of human life and suffering and partakes in illegal extra judicial killings.


As for firing back and not shooting at civilians.  It shows your complete and willful ignorance of fighting in a warzone in which guerilla war is taking place. But it is an option but Israel would rather use artillery or HEAT rounds or even illegal white phosphorus than a sniper.

I mean, you do realize the entire point of terrorist groups like Hamas is that they look EXACTLY like everybody else right?  Hamas do not look like everybody else. They wear a uniform.

In such cases there are only two options for engagement.

1) Don't fire at anybody until you actually see that person fire on you first.  This gives the known hostile group first shot for everbody in absolute terms.  That is clearly unworkable, ESPIECALLY when it comes to terrorist groups willing to give their lives.  Since it allows terrorists to walk right up to you and quite literally put a bullet in a soldiers head from a decent distance.

2) Order everybdody to get down, and shoot those that don't comply.  This will often involve civilian casualties.

Why talk about the above when it does not happen? I LOL at option 2. It's not a Hollywood film.

This isn't even counting all of the other things out of the control of the military that's always going to exist... like...

1) Soldiers who are dicks.  They old rape and pillage "war is fun" guys you'll never get rid of entirely.

2) Soldiers who... make a mistake.  I mean afterall their lives are on the freaking line, and guns are fairly eaisly to mistake items from across the room.

3) Soldiers with mental problems from the constant rocket firings.

4) Soldiers with a vendetta because they know somebody who died.

They are still the responsibility of the IDF, no excuses. Screen your soldiers better.

As for leaving the "occupied territories" everytime they do it seems to result in MORE rockets fired. When have they done that?

Palestine should be happy with whatever land they can negotiate after they spit in the face of the UN deal and started a war. A UN that consisted of less than 50 mostly imperialistic nations and no one in the region, the actual people that lived there had a say.

If Israel was really as inhumane as everybody likes to paint them they would of just expelled the losers of the war afterwords.  That was standard operation procedure at the time. After WWII it was not standard procedure and in fact it rarely was the case before apart from in some extreme circumstances. Just because Israel didn't forcibly expel the entire population doesn't mean it's occupation hasn't been brutal and humiliating. Also it knows it can't get away with everything, it still has to answer to the US.