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Forums - General Discussion - 9 dead as Israeli forces board Gaza aid Convoy

in this incident and all the incidents in the conflict between Israel and Palestine there are no good guys both parties have made mistakes and have caused harm to the other party. The blockade is Illegal and IMO Immoral but so is the taking of hostages. But in saying that one soldier doesn't seem like a valid reason for a blockade that harms thousands of people. The use of indiscriminate rockets is deplorable but so is the settlement of military occupied lands and the use of Illegal weapons like white phosphorus ( http://tiny.cc/8tvmx ) and the bombing of residential buildings. Blaming Terrorists for living where there are innocent people and or firing rockets from there is not a viable excuse when you have boxed them in to one of the most densely populated areas in the world. 

As for the latest incident yes the activists should have surrendered but the Israelis shouldn't have boarded  the boat and the fact that the activists fought back is not an excuse to start shooting them, there were other ways to stop the boat that wouldn't have lead to the loss of life. 

P.S. Humas is a democratically  elected into government and Israel doesn't acknowledge them because they Class them as a Terrorist organisation and want them to disband before they will restart peace talks, Humas is willing to negotiate but Israel isn't. Not that an agreement is likely as the Palestinians want all Palestinian prisoners in Israel to be released and their land to to be retuned. Nether is likely to ever happen especially the second one as the Israelites that live in the Illegal settlements are unwilling to leave their homes. 

P.P.S. Israel doesn't consider the lands they captured to be Military occupied as they don't recognise the Palestinian state so don't consider them to be at war.  



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MrBubbles said:
mirgro said:
MrBubbles said:

you know what i always find so interesting?  

how all the footage out of gaza shows that everyone is always well kept and well fed.  the news would have me believe they live in essentially concentration camp like conditions...but they always all look perfectly healthy, with nice clean clothes, their hair always neat and trimmed...you know?  wierd eh...


You know what I always find so interesting?

Most of the same footage is taken by the Israelis, seeing how they have a pretty tight control on journalism from in there... you know?  Not so weird now eh?

LOL...yeah its the israelis wandering around in gaza with cameras following reporters, including those from arab news stations who just want to spread hate agaisnt israel...

You really don't think that Israel has no journalist censoring at all on news pertaining to Gaza? Can I have some of the kool-aid you are drinking cause it seems kind of potent?



OK, too many B******t at one place.
Lets figure out facts!
1. The blockade is not over State of Palestine, but Gaza strip only.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaza_Strip
2. The Gaza Strip has been blockaded by Israel and Egypt since June 2007, after Hamas took control in Gaza.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007-2010_blockade_of_the_Gaza_Strip
3. Blockades are legal acording to UN
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blockade
4. It is legal to attack neutral merchant vessels in international waters acording to International Law (SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT) if they "are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture" (See first link). As you can see from the second link: "breaching a blockade" - checked, "prior warning" - checked, "refuse to stop" - checked.
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b509e76c41256739003e636d/7694fe2016f347e1c125641f002d49ce
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P6jDIQr59Sk

5. 9 People are dead - 8 turkish, 1 turkish american.



Now some interesting thoughts from me:
1. Turkey goverment said that Gaza blockade is illigal and inhumane, but then was it illigal and inhumane when Turkey and Azerbaijan blockade Armenia 15 years ago?
2. Why all write only about Israel blockade over Gaza? Egypt blockade Gaza too and are building wall between Gaza and Egypt.
3. The President of the Palestinian National Authority - Mahmoud Abbas said that Egypt's decision to build the steel wall has been defended as its sovereign right, but on the other hand condemned Israel's wall as "apartheid wall" in the West Bank, urging the international community to tear it down.
4. There are no reaction from America after news that one of the victims is with american passport, but boy if it was Iran instead of Israel all american newspapers would be like bombs.

Now tell me that you don't like double standarts.



FootballFan said:
Slimebeast said:

These are "unarmed humanitarian activists".


Strange. One report I saw said that the civillains all surrendered immiediatly and then the Isreali's open fired upon them whilst they had their hands up. This suggests the opposite.


thank God for video....this doesn't "suggest" it, it "shows" the opposite




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shio said:

Israeli government is, right now, the biggest terrorist organization in the world.


This guy is a joke




MrBubbles said:
[...]

"one of the ships violently attacks the israelis after they legally boarded"
Armed soldiers were invading a humanitarian ship in international waters and without the permission of the ship. There is no legal justification for this, and pretty much every crew would try to defend themselves with whatever they can find if their ship was being attacked.
I know that a ship sailing under the flag of my country is being regarding as sovereign territory of my country if the ship is in international waters. And I suppose that's rather international law than national law, so from a diplomatic point of view, this incident might eventually even be considered as israel invading turkey. I agree that sounds a little far fetched, but just imagine armed iranian soldiers were trying to board and take over a U.S. ship in international waters without permission. The U.S. could easily interpret this as a declaration of war by iran.

"it would appear that only one boat contained the previously mentioned terror activists"

The other ships were very small and as such much easier to take over by the israelites. I don't know if that really was the case, but another possible explanation could be that the big ship was first attacked, and when the people on the other ships heard over radio about the massacre they decided it would be best not to defend themselves. And calling them "terror activists" is just ridiculous.

"eventhough attempting to break the legal blockade was a pretty stupid idea in the first place"

Sure, the blockade may be "legal" - regarding israeli laws that is. Just like imprisoning jews in warsaw ghetto or concentration camps was actually perfectly legal too - regarding Nazi laws. The United nations on the hand have called upon israel to end the blockade more than once.
And while the blockade in general may be legal regarding israeli laws, the actual attack still was in international waters and as such definitely illegal.

"especially after the isreals said they would deliver all possible humanitarian aid over land"
The trick of this argument lies in the phrase "all possible humanitarian aid", as few people know that israel has a completely different understanding of "all possible humanitarian aid".

Israel is trying to spread the impression that the whole blockade is only about stopping weapons from being imported into Gaza. The truth however is that israel forbids pretty much everything to be imported. Here's just a few examples of things that cannot legally be imported into Gaza:
- fridges
- washing machines
- clothes and cloth
- shoes
- light bulbs
- candles
- matches
- books
- music instruments
- pencils
- mattresses
- blankets
- cutlery
- animals
- building materials
You can of course get most of these things in gaza too, but they're usually smuggled and therefor highly overpriced. To be fair, these goods were taken from a list from 2009 which might be slightly outdated meanwhile. Israels unbans certain things from time to time, for example they unbanned toilet paper, swaddling clothes, sanitary napkins, soap, shampoo, salt, margarine, vegetables and yeast last year. Pasta was also unbanned last year, because during a visit to gaza John Kerry somehow heard that Pasta was not allowed, which he just couldn't understand.

Looking at the huge list of things that are forbidden, it's almost impossible to believe that the blockade is really about weapons. Instead one gets the impression that israel simply tries to harrass the palestinians as much as possibe.

Now the whole point of the convoi was trying to deliver several goods that israel usually doesn't allow to be imported into gaza: wheelchairs, cement, childrens toys etc. So letting israel deliver the goods to gaza themselves was never really an alternative, because israel would only deliver parts of the shipment.

And it was absolutely clear that none of these ships was actually delivering weapons, as the convoi was publically announced days before. Imagine you really wanted to smuggle weapons into gaza - would you inform israel days in advance that you're planning to do something israel may not like and exactly where and when you will arrive? Of course not, because it was absolutely clear that israeli military will already be expecting the convoi when it arrives. Hence the whole use of weapons and violence was completely unneccesary in this particular case.


So if it was clear that israeli military would be awaiting them, why did they do it anyway? The Hasbarats will say that it was simply provocation, but that's nonsense. Delivering the goods indeed wasn't the only reason. I'm sure that the other (maybe even the main) motivation was to draw some public attention to the poor situation of the palestinians, especially the fact that israel does not allow even basic goods to be imported into gaza.


They knew that israel would try to stop them, but I'm sure the activists never ever even expected that israel would actually do something like this, as it was clear that attacking an unarmed humanitarian ship would look be condemned by the public opinion. It's like the greenpeace ships: it's rather unlikely they actually get attacked because of the bad reputation that would lead to.
Like most israelis as well, I still don't understand how the IDF could act so stupid. Even from the israeli point of view it was just plain stupid, there would have been other ways of dealing with the situation that would not have led to such a desaster in public opinion.



1 ArnoldRimmer

The IDF kills innocent civilians- FACT. Not an opinion but fact. In fact it has killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians since it's creation (Occupied territories and Lebanon). Resorting to massive use of violence is what it's well known for and what it does best when it's policies are challenged whether it's peacfully or violently.

The killing of civilians in this particular incident is unfortunate for Israel as it involves a wide mix of people from all over the world including activists from countries it has diplomatic relations with and members of NATO. This has bought it to major world wide attention.



chriscox1121 said:
FootballFan said:
Slimebeast said:

These are "unarmed humanitarian activists".


Strange. One report I saw said that the civillains all surrendered immiediatly and then the Isreali's open fired upon them whilst they had their hands up. This suggests the opposite.


thank God for video....this doesn't "suggest" it, it "shows" the opposite

It doesn't show the opposite, but it does show that it's not true that the israelis opened fire whilst the activists had their hands up. But I have actually never even heard of a single report claiming that was the case - any sources for that?

By the way, it's not only interesting what we see in this video, what we don't see is interesting as well. Ask yourselves why the IDF only released a very short 1 minute clip from the middle of the action instead of the full video. The obvious answer is that only this part of the video gives the impression the IDF wants.



Badassbab said:

1 ArnoldRimmer

The IDF kills innocent civilians- FACT. Not an opinion but fact. In fact it has killed tens of thousands of innocent civilians since it's creation (Occupied territories and Lebanon). Resorting to massive use of violence is what it's well known for and what it does best when it's policies are challenged whether it's peacfully or violently.

The killing of civilians in this particular incident is unfortunate for Israel as it involves a wide mix of people from all over the world including activists from countries it has diplomatic relations with and members of NATO. This has bought it to major world wide attention.


Name one military or police group that DOESN'T end up killing civilians.  People act like civilian casualties are this rare occurence... they happen all the time.

Espiecally with groups like Hamas who delibirly use civilians as human shields. (There are actual speaches where they proclaim this proudly.)

If a group of people shoot at you from populated areas... you have 1 of 2 options.

 

1) Get shot.

2) Fire back, and almost definitly kill civilians.

 

Most people choose the not dieing option.

 

In WW2, there were more civilian deaths then soldier deaths... on BOTH sides.