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Forums - Gaming - Another Look At Piracy

Ail said:

LAN is a thing of the past...

Only a few hardcore still cling to it. The majority of us would rather not have to carry our PC around to play a multiplayer game...

 

 

I'm sorry but what?! That makes no sense. It's become easier to have a LAN party now than ever before and is definately not just for the "hardcore". Routers are as cheap as chips and you can setup a LAN game incredibly quickly and easily in most games. Then there is the fact that most PCs being sold are laptops, so actually carrying a PC to play multiplayer is easier than ever before. I carry my laptop to work everyday, I wouldn't mind carrying one for a multiplayer session. Especially now as a lot of console games this gen seem to have forgotten about split-screen MP.



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Akvod said:
Kasz216 said:
Um... Akvod... you've taken economics... so you should know what causes piracy. Heck you alluded to it as much when you posted your graph. Piracy is nothing but a reaction... mostly by people who aren't going to buy something.

Is it wrong for somebody to get something for free if nobody actually loses anything? It's a grey area, the only reason I think piracy is particularly wrong is that I don't believe many people, if any are clairvoyant enough to know if they really wouldn't pay for it at it's asking price.

If I made something, ANYTHING... and someone made an exact copy of it, for free, at no cost to me... and I KNEW for a fact that they weren't going to buy it any other way, like say, because they make less in a year then it costs... to be quite honest... I wouldn't give a damn. It's not hurting me, except for my ability to say "You can't have this because you can't afford to pay me or don't have the means to pay me." (Credit cards and the like.)

Personally I think that makes ME the dick. I'm denying something to someone when that denial offers me nothing. Are those pirates selfish because they made their own copies of something they can't afford? Hell yes. However, aren't I being selfish by denying something to somebody for no reason other then I can?

Hell, even if it's "You can't have this because it's not worth it to you" I feel would make me a dick... just so long as I had 100% knowledge that said person wouldn't. (Which would be impossible.)

While there is the need for a more complex model and adress to the fact that there are people who do indeed, still pay to buy, I'm sure you and me can agree that there are definetly a good number of people, who are at or above the equilibrium price and marginal benefit, basically people that say "This is a fair price", who pirate.

Why?

If you're a rational person, why would you not pirate? Alturism? Charity? Morality?

Again, I don't want to take the totally cynical look here. We can definetly incorporate a OC to pirating (sense of guilt, risk, etc) and make that the supply curve, but it will be much much more elastic (flater).

You lose two things as a IP holder when there is pirating.

 

The potential loss of sale and revenue to those who would have paid, if they were not offered the same product for 0 cost, by other pirates.

The labor they had put into creating that thing. That thing that would have never existed. That is undeniably going to be lost. The labor the was put in, the dignity that it entails.

 

 

 

I think it's more dickish, not to say "You can't have it", but to say "I want to have it, I deserve it, and I will take it".

Two reasons.

A) Basic economic theory tells us people WANT to pay a fair price for an item.  The VAST majority of people would rather pay what they see is a fair price then take something for free.  People are actually conditioned to WANT to pay for something.  Goods gained "iillegitamitly" aren't enjoyed nearly as much by the vast majority of people.

B) Rational people know that if they do take something they think is worth the money... future versions of that thing WON'T be made.  I mean, duh.

 

Like I said though.   I disagree.  I think it's FAR more dickish to deny something for no other reason then... you can.  If there is no reason for you to expect they could or would pay regardless.



vlad321 said:

From the guys who are doing the 5 game indie pack:

http://blog.wolfire.com/2010/05/Another-view-of-game-piracy

 

 

Another view of game piracy

Add Comment! By David on May 6th, 2010

We've been hearing a lot about game piracy recently, with big developers inflicting draconian online-only DRM systems on their users, and blaming their declining PC game sales entirely on piracy. I'm not questioning that piracy is common, since even honest, DRM-free, indie developers like 2DBoy[1] report a 90% piracy rate. I am, however, questioning what this means. How much revenue are developers actually losing to piracy?

The common industry assumption is that developers are losing 90% of their revenue. That is, pirates would have bought every single game that they downloaded. From personal experience, I know this is not possible -- most pirates that I've met have downloaded enough software to exceed their entire lifetime income, were they to have paid for it all. A more plausible (but still overly optimistic) guess is that if piracy was stopped the average pirate would behave like an average consumer.

This means that to calculate the worst-case scenario of how much money is lost to piracy, we just need to figure out what percentage of the target market consists of pirates. For example, if 50% of the market is pirates, that means that it's possible that you've lost 50% of your revenue to piracy. So how do we calculate what percentage of the market consists of pirates? Do we just go with 90%?

iPhone piracy

iPhone game developers have also found that around 80% of their users are running pirated copies of their game (using jailbroken phones) [2] This immediately struck me as odd -- I suspected that most iPhone users had never even heard of 'jailbreaking'. I did a bit more research and found that my intuition was correct -- only 5% of iPhones in the US are jailbroken. [3] World-wide, the jailbreak statistics are highest in poor countries -- but, unsurprisingly, iPhones are also much less common there. The highest estimate I've seen is that 10% of worldwide iPhones are jailbroken. Given that there are so few jailbroken phones, how can we explain that 80% of game copies are pirated?

The answer is simple -- the average pirate downloads a lot more games than the average customer buys. This means that even though games see that 80% of their copies are pirated, only 10% of their potential customers are pirates, which means they are losing at most 10% of their sales. If you'd like to see an example with math, read the following paragraph. If word problems make your eyes glaze over, then I advise you to skip it.

Let's consider the following scenario. Because game pirates can get apps for free, they download a couple new games every day -- or about 500 games in a year. On the other hand, normal gamers tend to play the same game for a longer time -- buying an average of 5 games per year. If this seems low to you, then consider that you are also reading a post on an indie game developer blog. You are probably more hardcore than the average gamer. Anyway, given these statistics, if the market consists of 10 million gamers, then there are 500 million pirated game copies, and 90 million purchased game copies, From the perspective of every individual game, 80% of its users are using pirated copies. However, only 10% of the market consists of pirates.

PC game piracy

Does this also apply to PC (Windows/Mac/Linux) gamers? Many PC game developers find that about 90% of their users are running pirated copies -- does this mean that piracy is killing PC games? Let's try our alternative explanation, and see if these statistics are possible even if only 20% of worldwide PC gamers are pirates. The average PC gamer worldwide only buys about three games a year, and plays them for a long time [4]. I buy many more than that, and you probably do too, but again, we are not average gamers! On the other hand, game pirates might download a new game every few days, for a total of about 125 games a year. Given these numbers, games would see 90% piracy rates even though only 20% of gamers are pirates.

Are these numbers accurate? The NPD recently conducted an anonymous survey showing that only 4% of PC gamers in the US admit to pirating games [5], a number that is comparable to XBox 360 piracy statistics [6] . However, since piracy is inversely proportionate to per-capita GDP, we can expect piracy rates to increase dramatically in places like Russia, China and India, driving up the world-wide average. Let's say to 20%.

This means that if all pirates would otherwise buy as many games as the average consumer, then game developers would be losing 20% of their revenue to piracy.

But would pirates really buy games?

Anecdotally and from studies by companies like the BSA, it's clear that pirates for the most part have very little income. They are unemployed students, or live in countries with very low per-capita GDP, where the price of a $60 game is more like $1000 (in terms of purchasing power parity and income percentage). When Reflexive games performed a series of experiments with anti-piracy measures, they found that they only made one extra sale for every 1000 pirated copies they blocked [7]. This implies that their 90% piracy statistic caused them to lose less than 1% of their sales.

Why are PC games really losing sales?

While many game developers blame piracy for their decreasing PC game sales, it is clear that this is not the problem -- relatively few gamers are pirates, and those that are would mostly not be able to afford games anyway.

However, it's easier for these developers to point their fingers at pirates than to face the real problem: that their games are not fun on PC. The games in question are usually designed for consoles, with the desktop port as an afterthought. This means they are not fun to play with a mouse and keyboard, and don't work well on PC hardware. Their field of view is designed to be viewed from a distant couch instead of a nearby monitor, and their gameplay is simplified to compensate for this tunnel vision.

Blizzard is one of the most successful game developers in the world, and it develops exclusively for desktop computers. Why do they succeed where everyone else fails? They create games that are designed from the beginning to work well with the mouse and keyboard, and with all kinds of desktop hardware. If developers spent more time improving their PC gaming experience, and less time complaining about piracy, we might see more successful PC games.

With the Humble Indie Bundle promotion we've seen that when we treat gamers as real people instead of criminals, they seem to respond in kind. Anyone can get all five DRM-free games for a single penny, and pirate them as much as they want -- we have no way to find out or stop it. However, in just the first two days, we have over 40,000 contributions with an average of $8 each! Would we have seen this much support if the games were console ports that only worked when connected to a secure online DRM server? We'll never know for sure, but somehow I doubt it.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

 

I have been saying this for freaking ever. The top pirated games of 2009 and 2008, at least for the PC, were all widely regarded as being crap. Make good games, and they won't get pirated, simple philosophy. I wish shitty developers would stop using piracy as a scapegoat to their own inability to make a game that doesn't suck.

red:not all the time though. Take Modern Warfare 2 for example. The game was pretty good(for most people) and got pirated a lot.



Kasz216 said:
Akvod said:
Kasz216 said:
Um... Akvod... you've taken economics... so you should know what causes piracy. Heck you alluded to it as much when you posted your graph. Piracy is nothing but a reaction... mostly by people who aren't going to buy something.

Is it wrong for somebody to get something for free if nobody actually loses anything? It's a grey area, the only reason I think piracy is particularly wrong is that I don't believe many people, if any are clairvoyant enough to know if they really wouldn't pay for it at it's asking price.

If I made something, ANYTHING... and someone made an exact copy of it, for free, at no cost to me... and I KNEW for a fact that they weren't going to buy it any other way, like say, because they make less in a year then it costs... to be quite honest... I wouldn't give a damn. It's not hurting me, except for my ability to say "You can't have this because you can't afford to pay me or don't have the means to pay me." (Credit cards and the like.)

Personally I think that makes ME the dick. I'm denying something to someone when that denial offers me nothing. Are those pirates selfish because they made their own copies of something they can't afford? Hell yes. However, aren't I being selfish by denying something to somebody for no reason other then I can?

Hell, even if it's "You can't have this because it's not worth it to you" I feel would make me a dick... just so long as I had 100% knowledge that said person wouldn't. (Which would be impossible.)

While there is the need for a more complex model and adress to the fact that there are people who do indeed, still pay to buy, I'm sure you and me can agree that there are definetly a good number of people, who are at or above the equilibrium price and marginal benefit, basically people that say "This is a fair price", who pirate.

Why?

If you're a rational person, why would you not pirate? Alturism? Charity? Morality?

Again, I don't want to take the totally cynical look here. We can definetly incorporate a OC to pirating (sense of guilt, risk, etc) and make that the supply curve, but it will be much much more elastic (flater).

You lose two things as a IP holder when there is pirating.

 

The potential loss of sale and revenue to those who would have paid, if they were not offered the same product for 0 cost, by other pirates.

The labor they had put into creating that thing. That thing that would have never existed. That is undeniably going to be lost. The labor the was put in, the dignity that it entails.

 

 

 

I think it's more dickish, not to say "You can't have it", but to say "I want to have it, I deserve it, and I will take it".

Two reasons.

A) Basic economic theory tells us people WANT to pay a fair price for an item.  The VAST majority of people would rather pay what they see is a fair price then take something for free.  People are actually conditioned to WANT to pay for something.  Goods gained "iillegitamitly" aren't enjoyed nearly as much by the vast majority of people.

B) Rational people know that if they do take something they think is worth the money... future versions of that thing WON'T be made.  I mean, duh.

 

Like I said though.   I disagree.  I think it's FAR more dickish to deny something for no other reason then... you can.  If there is no reason for you to expect they could or would pay regardless.

Basic economic theory teaches us that people pay the price, if it is AT or BELOW their marginal benefit.

If consumers paid exactly what they thought the product was worth, consumer surplus will be impossible. Although I might value, say, my PS3 to be $700, if I saw it being sold for $300 I will buy it, no? If it was half that, I'll still buy it, and so on.

Economics has a simple logic, consumers want a lower price. You have a much more complex logic, which is, consumers want to pay a fair (under what criteria?) price. Consumers will think a price is fair, if that price is the same as their value for the product, but that doesn't stop them from paying a lower price.

 

But, that's why I admit there's a more complex side to it, and why I want to add a OC curve to "illegtimacy". This is much more complex, and is much more theoretical. But don't try to act like it's somehow "basic" economics. You're contradicting "basic" economics, and it's in your interest not to bring it up, because in basic economics, piracy entails a perfectly elastic supply curve, all the way at the bottom: $0.

 

B) Then why do people pirate... out of hatred for that product? And while my rationalism is simple (lower price=better), your "rationalism" is much more complex. Do you really think people constantly think about the macro or micro economic consequence of their buying? No.

 

 

 

 

But that person isn't obligated to give anything. That person has created something that there wasn't before, and you make it sound like they are "witholding" it, as if we had a "right" to take it. They can do whatever they want with the product, and we also can do whatever we want, with our wallets. Supply and demand, and the equilibrium price that results from it, is consensual.

Those that pirate, are doing it without consent.



vlad321 said:
Ail said:

Dude, I'm not the one that just made 20+ posts trying to explain how people pirate because they feel the software isn't worth the asking price...

You are the one that tried to explain that to us. And then you post data that totally invalidate your arguments, so where are you getting at ?

These statistics don't show anything that invalidates the fact that people don't think somehing is worth it.

As you can see the average paid for those is aron $8 and in the very initial post it's said that they would be near $80. That right there shows you that what developers feel entitled to is very wrong. Add to that the convenience and everything, on top of he price, and you get a pretty complete picture of pirates.

You have a flawed arguments.

The average person paid $8. $8 for 5 games. Somehow, the average person wants to pay $1.60 per game. This means the average person is CHEAP. Do you know how many games would succees at that price? Even Blizzard, selling 10 million+ copies of their most popular games would lose money at that price. Granted, these aren't blizzard quality titles, but the point is that the average consumer wants to pay a lot less than things are worth. That shows you right there why pirates are a problem. a game costs $40, a pirate says "I would only pay $2." And then they proceed to acquire it for $0. Guess what? Games are expensive to make, and thus expensive to buy. Honest people buy the ones they feel are worthwile, and rent or don't play the rest. (And yes, renting is viable. Play a crappy/short game through for $5, and at least the people who make it get a little something)



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pizzahut451 said:

red:not all the time though. Take Modern Warfare 2 for example. The game was pretty good(for most people) and got pirated a lot.

Modern Warfare 2 is actually the biggest pile of shit ever released on the PC. I was sad to see it wasn't even more pirated.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Jereel Hunter said:

Well, you're citation 7, that quote was pulled directly from that article - copied and pasted... a find on those words would show where it came from. Maybe you misread it? The first round of DRM additions they claimed increased sales and reduced downloads... though I honestly don't think their test was an accurate judge anyway.

As for having no right to want the same money - Blizzard, Valve, etc, companies make money from volume. It's easy for them to not have to charge for more quality if they sell 10x as much as everyone else. Even if some random nobody company puts out an excellent game, they're probably not going to achieve 8 figure sales. You're view is jaded - blizzard put sout games that are worth way more than everyone else - but they charge TOO LITTLE. You get way more than your money's worth. You CANNOT hold everyone to the exact same standard. And if you think everyone's games should cost relative to the quality of a blizzard title, you should just stick with blizzard titles. It's still not a justification for piracy - never was.

You should really quote the whole thing then andnot just the first half of the sentence, here "but sometimes it can have no benefit at all."

You do realize when Blizzard and Valve started, they weren't known. Half-Life was not the pinnacle of gaming, and Warcraft 2 and Diablo were not known, they got there just by being good and asking a fair price for them. Remember that one whole third of DOOM was shareware? It's not about whether you are new or not, it's about how good the product you release is nd if you ask a fair price for it. Don't even bother start with saying how production costs have risen, because the value of the product is not determined by the resources that went into it, but by its actual value. If some idiot spend 1 billion on a shit game, then there is no reason he should ask for $200 for it.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Jereel Hunter said:
vlad321 said:
Ail said:

Dude, I'm not the one that just made 20+ posts trying to explain how people pirate because they feel the software isn't worth the asking price...

You are the one that tried to explain that to us. And then you post data that totally invalidate your arguments, so where are you getting at ?

These statistics don't show anything that invalidates the fact that people don't think somehing is worth it.

As you can see the average paid for those is aron $8 and in the very initial post it's said that they would be near $80. That right there shows you that what developers feel entitled to is very wrong. Add to that the convenience and everything, on top of he price, and you get a pretty complete picture of pirates.

You have a flawed arguments.

The average person paid $8. $8 for 5 games. Somehow, the average person wants to pay $1.60 per game. This means the average person is CHEAP. Do you know how many games would succees at that price? Even Blizzard, selling 10 million+ copies of their most popular games would lose money at that price. Granted, these aren't blizzard quality titles, but the point is that the average consumer wants to pay a lot less than things are worth. That shows you right there why pirates are a problem. a game costs $40, a pirate says "I would only pay $2." And then they proceed to acquire it for $0. Guess what? Games are expensive to make, and thus expensive to buy. Honest people buy the ones they feel are worthwile, and rent or don't play the rest. (And yes, renting is viable. Play a crappy/short game through for $5, and at least the people who make it get a little something)

From what I can tell they've made over 1.1mil and moved abut 125k. I wonder if they would have done so without the correct pricing. That's 1.1 million more than they would have gotten than if the price wasn't changed.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835

 

Piracy only works as long as some people pay for the software, that's were all the pirate logic is flawed...

If every consumer did like them, there wouldn't be any product on the market anymore because developers couldn't afford to develop them....

 

Which is what makes pirates parasites, in the real sense of the term ( and not smart consumers as some try to portray themselves).



PS3-Xbox360 gap : 1.5 millions and going up in PS3 favor !

PS3-Wii gap : 20 millions and going down !

Ail said:
Piracy only works as long as some people pay for the software, that's were all the pirate logic is flawed...

If every consumer did like them, there wouldn't be any product on the market anymore because developers couldn't afford to develop them....

That is such a flawed argument. In fact I can say it for any argument.

"If everyone was gay the human race would be gone." "If everyonoe had an abortion then the human race would be gone" "If everyone smoked pot, nothing would get done" "If everyone was drunk, nothing would get all the time" etcc. etc. Your argument is completely flawed, just like it would be for any other issue out there. Oh yeah also don't forget how the economic system works in general "If everyone wanted their money at the same time we'd all be fucked."

Hate to break it to you, but none of that has come to pass.



Tag(thx fkusumot) - "Yet again I completely fail to see your point..."

HD vs Wii, PC vs HD: http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/thread.php?id=93374

Why Regenerating Health is a crap game mechanic: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=3986420

gamrReview's broken review scores: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=4170835