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Forums - General - BNP would offer non-white Britons £50,000 to leave UK, says Nick Griffin

Kantor on 02 May 2010
highwaystar101 said:
Kantor said:
highwaystar101 said:
Kantor said:
highwaystar101 said:

a. Offering him money to leave makes your example far more racist than mine, because it's no longer a situation of "can you please leave, we don't want you", now it's a case of "we really don't want you here because you are related to Germans, I'll even pay you to leave".

b. So does the payment somehow justify racism? Does the payment somehow justify picking one person out because his grandparents are from another country? If I try to incite hatred to people with foreign lineage, will I get off scott free if I can say in court "yeah, I incited hatred towards this one group of people, but I also offered to pay them"?

 

Also, you persistently keep calling the doctor German. He's not German, he's British. It's just that he's related to Germans. Think about that for a minute. Is it right to say one British person should be asked to leave and another shouldn't?

a) A lot more hateful. Not more racist.

b) Not at all. And you're not inciting hatred. You're not treating them any differently from an "indigenous Brit". You ask them to leave, and if they don't leave, you go back to thinking up policies on something other than immigration.

And if he identified himself as British, he'd probably want to stay. You're assuming that the doctor, because he was born in Britain, considers himself British. That's not always the case. I've met plenty of people with foreign born grandparents who don't consider themselves British.

a) Does being more hateful make it any better? I mean it's obviously equally racist as the other scenario. I said it was worse, and in general I think that statement is true, whatever the case.

b) Inciting hatred was another, more extreme, situation I used the same logic for. My question was essentially regarding what you implied about it being better because you are offering them money for leaving, which I think doesn't make it better at all. If anything it makes it far worse.

...

Whether they consider themselves British or not is irrelevant. I didn't mention it, and I'm certainly not assuming it like you say. The official stance is that they are British, and if they feel another way then so be it. It is unfair to ask one group of British people to leave based on their lineage and not ask the so called "indigenous" group.

Also, conversely to what you say, I've met people (one of my friends in particular stands out) who are extremely proud of being British, de spite only being second or third generation British.

a) Not better, no. Worse, much worse. Just not more racist.

b) Again, it's not better, just less racist. Less harmful to those people who are affected. Basically, there are three ways in which they could do this:

-Ask people to leave voluntarily... if they wanted to, they already would have.

-Give people an incentive to leave- this.

-Force people to leave- worst of all. Most hateful, most racist, and just terrible.

_________________

I agree with you- many immigrants (some even first generation) do feel British. But some don't, and that's fine. I don't think they should get money to leave; I just think it's a lot better than forcing them to leave, which would be the alternative.

Of course, the whole idea of making Britain "99% indigenous British" is stupid.

I wouldn't say it was less racist, I think I would say it was at least equally as racist to offer them cash. As you said though, the incentive is the next one up on the list after asking, and that's why I think it's worse and just exacerbates everything.

 

To be honest, I guess were are pretty much debating the same side here, it's just that we have slightly differing views. I think in general we both agree that what the BNP want to do is bad. And I don't like getting into such heated debates with people I like, so do you want to just call it quits?

 

Debate is fine- we're not getting personal or anything.

But I guess our difference of opinion lies with our definitions of racism, which can't really change. So, agree to disagree



(Former) Lead Moderator and (Eternal) VGC Detective

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SamuelRSmith on 02 May 2010
highwaystar101 said:
SamuelRSmith said:
highwaystar101 said:
Seece said:
It IS racist, ignoring the fact it's a racist party completely. It's still a racist thing. I bet if you asked them most would probably admit if it wasn't for getting a bollocking.

I don't know much about politics, I don't claim to either. Some people should follow suit and stop acting as if they know ANYTHING about politics and getting into debates with people that do, just end up looking foolish when they don't know how to respond correctly

Haha, that's me when Kasz, SamuelRSmith or Mafoo (the three that seem to understand politics) take me on.

I don't know anything about politics, my political views are erratic to say the least. But sometimes people like me that don't know anything about politics have to get involved because politics affects everyone.

My ears are burning.

I wanted to see inside, so I lit a Q-tip.

Ah, yes, well how many times have you owned me in political debates? I would say it is almost in the dozens.

I lost count a couple years ago.



highwaystar101 on 02 May 2010
phinch1 said:
highwaystar101 said:
phinch1 said:
highwaystar101 said:
phinch1 said:

Ther German Doctor is given the "CHOICE" that if he wants to go home he can, If he chooses not too, then thats fine,
Nick Griffin said it would be ok aslong as they contribute to the society and what better was as a Doctor?

sounds ok to me....

Do you understand the situation? The doctor is British, he is not German. I don't know why you thought he was German. He will be asked to leave because his grandparents were from Germany.

The fact that the doctor, as a 100% British person, has been singled out because of his lineage and asked to leave is just outright plain racist.

And as I quoted in an earlier post form the BNP policies, the BNP would not be ok as long as they contribute to society as they plan to close all immigration. The only case would be special circumstances, which Nick Griffin defined by using the Japanese physicist analogy, which is such a violation of basic rights against an immigrant (forcing them to do one job and not allowing them a choice) it's laughable.

And Nick griffin has said repeatedly that he does not want immigrants working for the NHS, in fact his plan is to get all immigrant workers in the NHS out. It's pretty much one of the major forces of the BNP healthcare policy.

ok The doctor with german "lineage" is given the choice. its up to him weather he take up n the offer, and he probably wont, good for him, I just though your example was pretty crap

How is it crap? It's bang on. The guy is being picked out for his German lineage and asked to leave. It's just plain racist. Yes he can accept it, and yes he can turn it down. But that doesn't change the fact that he's being asked to leave for having foreign lineage.

If I was having a house party for VGChartz members and you turned up, how would you feel if I asked you to leave because I found out you had some German in you? You don't have to leave, but man would you be offended by me. Most people would call my actions racist, most would call it unacceptable.

 

Your confusing yourself now, nick griffin did not ask this hyperthetical guy to leave the country all he is saying to everyone with foreign lineage is that "IF THEY WANT TO" they can go home and get paid 50k

So it would be more like this.You having a house party for your family + vgchartz members and thinking to yourself, jeeze my house is getting a bit full, its getting hard to keep on top of everything going on then standing up and making the anouncemnt to people who arent of your family "my house if full I dont mind too much if you want to say...... but if you WANT TO GO HOME! I will pay for your taxi fair home.

thats spot on mate, your blowing things out of proportion

No, I'm not confusing myself. Nick Griffin would ask the hypothetical man with foreign lineage to leave when he asks all people with foreign lineage to leave. You keep seeing the whole "If they want to" argument as some way of justifying it. It doesn't justify it, not by a long shot. Why is one British person asked to leave and not another? Yes you are giving the person a choice, but you are giving them a choice based on extremely racist reasoning.

Also, your analogy is poor, it isn't spot on by a long shot. This isn't saying "my house is full, I'm going to announce to everyone that I need people to leave.", it's one of two things...

"Boy my house is getting full, I think I might ask those black people to leave as they are the people I want here least. I'll offer to pay for their taxi fare home, it will be an incentive for them to leave"

or

"Boy I don't like black people in my house, perhaps I will ask them to leave. I will pay for their taxi fare, it will be an incentive for that group to leave"

 

Those two are far more accurate to the situation. It's either one or the other, he isn't just announcing this choice to everyone, he's picking out a certain group based on their lineage.

 



highwaystar101 on 02 May 2010

Actually no, I'll add a third analogy. It's like a party where you have your family round (no VGChartz), but you notice that the black man your cousin recently married came too.

It would be like going up to him and asking him to leave because you think he doesn't deserve to be there as much as the rest of the family. Even if you offer to pay his taxi fare, it doesn't justify asking him to leave whatsoever.



phinch1 on 02 May 2010
highwaystar101 said:
Actually no, I'll add a third analogy. It's like a party where you have your family round (no VGChartz), but you notice that the black man your cousin recently married came too.

It would be like going up to him and asking him to leave because you think he doesn't deserve to be there as much as the rest of the family. Even if you offer to pay his taxi fare, it doesn't justify asking him to leave whatsoever.

ahh well now your analogy is flawed because if i had family round and no (Vg members) then my house would no longer be full therefore I wouldn't ask anyone to leave.



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SamuelRSmith on 02 May 2010

I've always wondered whether people would consider the country full if we had 61 million "British indigenous" living here, and no immigrants.

I don't understand why we have to turf out hard working immigrants, why not the lazy indigenous that never have intention of doing a day's work in their life? Does the fact that they're born of (and continue to live off) tax payer's money really give them any more rights? I really wish it didn't.



makingmusic476 on 02 May 2010

I'm a descendant of like 6-7 different nationalities. If I lived in Britain, would the BNP want me to leave because I'm only like an 8th British? And I'm a quarter Irish. Wonder how they'd feel about that!

I pray for a future in which the world's people have become so thoroughly mixed that we will no longer give a shit about stuff like this. Probably won't ever happen, though. =/

We need aliens to show themselves at some point, so we can unify our distaste towards them. lolz



trashleg on 02 May 2010

The sooner Scotland becomes fully devolved, the sooner I won't be at risk of having my nation run by a racist wanker like Nick Griffiths.

i dont even know what my ancestors are, but for £50k i'd get out of the shit-hole that Britain is turning into.

 

one question, what are the rules on coming back? would i be like banished forever?



Highwaystar101 said: trashleg said that if I didn't pay back the money she leant me, she would come round and break my legs... That's why people call her trashleg, because she trashes the legs of the people she loan sharks money to.
FootballFan on 02 May 2010
trashleg said:

The sooner Scotland becomes fully devolved, the sooner I won't be at risk of having my nation run by a racist wanker like Nick Griffiths.

i dont even know what my ancestors are, but for £50k i'd get out of the shit-hole that Britain is turning into.

 

one question, what are the rules on coming back? would i be like banished forever?


Why do you think it's turning bad? Also Scotland will be far far far worse off if it devolves. There won't be anyone to pay for their University or medical fees...



highwaystar101 on 02 May 2010
phinch1 said:
highwaystar101 said:
Actually no, I'll add a third analogy. It's like a party where you have your family round (no VGChartz), but you notice that the black man your cousin recently married came too.

It would be like going up to him and asking him to leave because you think he doesn't deserve to be there as much as the rest of the family. Even if you offer to pay his taxi fare, it doesn't justify asking him to leave whatsoever.

ahh well now your analogy is flawed because if i had family round and no (Vg members) then my house would no longer be full therefore I wouldn't ask anyone to leave.

Ok, what if your family is really large. What if your house was full of family members? Would you ask the black person to leave because it's overcrowded, based on the reasoning that he is black?

...

Your analogy used two groups of people and it was pretty clear who they represented (Family = British people: VGchartz = immigrants). You wouldn't be asking the immigrants to leave, you would be asking a member of your own family (the British) to leave based on their lineage.

My analogy suits up to what Griffin is proposing, he doesn't want the immigrants to leave in this case, he's asking British people (the family) to leave.