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Forums - Nintendo - Legacy gaming (Virtual Console) helps me appreciate modern games + design

Let me just preface this so nobody gets the bright idea to come in here and say "YEAH OLD GAME DESIGN SUCKS LOLOLOL". That's not what this topic is about. If you're coming in here to say that, turn around and leave. There is no place for you here. Begone!

A few days ago I sat down and played through the original Legend of Zelda again - I referenced a map, which is a heinous thing to do, except that I only did this because I couldn't find my own map. The first time I played through the game I drew out my own grid and filled in details as I explored, and in this way learned the topography of Hyrule. It was pretty cool as far as experiences like that go. Regardless, this time I used a map.

I was struck by the kind of game that Zelda was - my first time through, when I was making my own map, the game took me about fifteen hours or so to get through, and I think I only managed it that fast because I know how to play Zelda games, as it were. This time, in knowing where to go, t took me six, and I was kind of struck by how dense a game it was - enemies everywhere, dungeons short and punchy and difficult to navigate, earlier ones filled with secrets and latter ones requires mastery of secrets just to get through them. In terms of content density, it's one of the richest games I've ever played. You can do so much in so little time, it's incredible.

Today I booted up Link to the Past for the first time in six or seven years. Maybe longer.

Holy shit!

It's hard to convey the kind of change that Link ot the Past was after the first game (and the second one - I played that earlier but never did manage to beat it), and the best I can hope for is to gesticulate wildly in the directions of the things that struck me mmediately.

Firstly, the fact of the game's story presentation - the stuf that's presented when you sit at the title screen a minute - is simultaneously exactly like the original game and nothing like it at all. While it serves the sole purpose of fleshing out the story before you begin the game, like th old one, it aids in its narrative weaving with the use of cutscenes which are short, sharp, and relevant to everything that needs to be conveyed to you. Before the adventure even begins you're given this enormous sense of stnaidng on the precipice of osmething bigger than yourself, like a young boy standing outside of a cave where  a hermit waits to give him a sword.

Link to the Past has visibly bombable walls that make a different sound when you hit them. That doesn't sound like much, but it was the start of somehting revolutionary - you have ot understand that in the first game, the only way to see if a surface was bombable was to throw bombs at it.

It has dynamic lighting affected by torches that you light and that go out over time.

It has keys that ae only useful in a single dungeon (though this was introduced in Adventure of Link, to be fair).

The act of stepping through Hyrule Castle - it's had to describe. In the NES days the Hyrule you know is basically a wasteland with a few villages scattered across its surface, looking to rebuild in the aftermath of Ganon's defeat. Link to the Past is like walking through a realization of everything that Hyrule was striving for, an that implied grandeur only made the forboding menace of Aganhim seem more and more terrible.

Playing an older game has helped me appreciate a newer one - I think this trend will probably hold as I continue replaying more games in the series.

This isn't jus a Zelda thing, either - playing through Super Mario Bros. is like a revelation in and of itself, with non other point of reference necessary, but I think I've gone on long enough.

Has playing old games helped you appreciate the way game design has evolved over time?



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Playing old games has made me both appreciate old game design and new game design. Right now I'm in the middle of playing both Monster Hunter 3 and Ocarina of Time. There are huge differences between the types of games they are but the emphasis on massive amounts of content are both apparent. It makes me think about the possibilities for Zelda Wii. But it's funny because in terms of controls, Monster Hunter is really a step behind Oot. Link moves way more smoothly than my hunter and I find it easier to fight with Link. I realize that Monster Hunter is striving to be more "realistic" but my point still stands.

On the other hand, I have been returning to play Warcraft 2 and Red Alert recently and have had some interesting realizations about those games. The controls and responsiveness of units is just not up to par with Warcraft 3 or even Starcraft. The AI is just tough to deal with. Also I find that going back and replaying Diablo 1 is nearly impossible due to the characters slow movement. So if anything, these games have indeed made me appreciate the big leaps that Starcraft, Warcraft 3 and Diablo 2 took for their franchises.



"Pier was a chef, a gifted and respected chef who made millions selling his dishes to the residents of New York City and Boston, he even had a famous jingle playing in those cities that everyone knew by heart. He also had a restaurant in Los Angeles, but not expecting LA to have such a massive population he only used his name on that restaurant and left it to his least capable and cheapest chefs. While his New York restaurant sold kobe beef for $100 and his Boston restaurant sold lobster for $50, his LA restaurant sold cheap hotdogs for $30. Initially these hot dogs sold fairly well because residents of los angeles were starving for good food and hoped that the famous name would denote a high quality, but most were disappointed with what they ate. Seeing the success of his cheap hot dogs in LA, Pier thought "why bother giving Los Angeles quality meats when I can oversell them on cheap hotdogs forever, and since I don't care about the product anyways, why bother advertising them? So Pier continued to only sell cheap hotdogs in LA and was surprised to see that they no longer sold. Pier's conclusion? Residents of Los Angeles don't like food."

"The so-called "hardcore" gamer is a marketing brainwashed, innovation shunting, self-righteous idiot who pays videogame makers far too much money than what is delivered."

griffinA said:
Playing old games has made me both appreciate old game design and new game design. Right now I'm in the middle of playing both Monster Hunter 3 and Ocarina of Time. There are huge differences between the types of games they are but the emphasis on massive amounts of content are both apparent. It makes me think about the possibilities for Zelda Wii. But it's funny because in terms of controls, Monster Hunter is really a step behind Oot. Link moves way more smoothly than my hunter and I find it easier to fight with Link. I realize that Monster Hunter is striving to be more "realistic" but my point still stands.

On the other hand, I have been returning to play Warcraft 2 and Red Alert recently and have had some interesting realizations about those games. The controls and responsiveness of units is just not up to par with Warcraft 3 or even Starcraft. The AI is just tough to deal with. Also I find that going back and replaying Diablo 1 is nearly impossible due to the characters slow movement. So if anything, these games have indeed made me appreciate the big leaps that Starcraft, Warcraft 3 and Diablo 2 took for their franchises.

Yeah, I think the point here is that different developers approach content density in different ways and design paradigms are kind of built around that. Or vice versa. Eh!

Do you think that Monster Hunter Tri would be easy if it controlled like OoT?



This is probably a little offtopic, But since we are into the subject of ALttP

I got stuck after I got to the darkworld for the first time.

There just isn't anywere to go from there. Could anyone tell me what I'm supposed to do?



I LOVE ICELAND!

flying in Mario 3 was huge at the time. That changed a lot of things. Then later was Yoshi.

Going back and playing old games if kinda like Nostalgic Roulette. Often the game will not live up to your memory. The original turtles game is one for me that has not held up well. But then you also get games that are well made and still fun the Ducktales and Rescue Ranger games are still pretty good. The original A Boy and his Blob was excruciatingly difficult but interesting. The new one is far more enjoyable because of the modern design.



"But as always, technology refused to be dignity's bitch."--Vance DeGeneres

 

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KungKras said:
This is probably a little offtopic, But since we are into the subject of ALttP

I got stuck after I got to the darkworld for the first time.

There just isn't anywere to go from there. Could anyone tell me what I'm supposed to do?

Find a blue square to stand on, if I remember (I may not).



valen200 said:
flying in Mario 3 was huge at the time. That changed a lot of things. Then later was Yoshi.

Going back and playing old games if kinda like Nostalgic Roulette. Often the game will not live up to your memory. The original turtles game is one for me that has not held up well. But then you also get games that are well made and still fun the Ducktales and Rescue Ranger games are still pretty good. The original A Boy and his Blob was excruciatingly difficult but interesting. The new one is far more enjoyable because of the modern design.

Yeah, some games hold up better than others, but that makes me thinkn that some games today may not be as well-designed as we think, either.



Khuutra said:
griffinA said:
Playing old games has made me both appreciate old game design and new game design. Right now I'm in the middle of playing both Monster Hunter 3 and Ocarina of Time. There are huge differences between the types of games they are but the emphasis on massive amounts of content are both apparent. It makes me think about the possibilities for Zelda Wii. But it's funny because in terms of controls, Monster Hunter is really a step behind Oot. Link moves way more smoothly than my hunter and I find it easier to fight with Link. I realize that Monster Hunter is striving to be more "realistic" but my point still stands.

On the other hand, I have been returning to play Warcraft 2 and Red Alert recently and have had some interesting realizations about those games. The controls and responsiveness of units is just not up to par with Warcraft 3 or even Starcraft. The AI is just tough to deal with. Also I find that going back and replaying Diablo 1 is nearly impossible due to the characters slow movement. So if anything, these games have indeed made me appreciate the big leaps that Starcraft, Warcraft 3 and Diablo 2 took for their franchises.

Yeah, I think the point here is that different developers approach content density in different ways and design paradigms are kind of built around that. Or vice versa. Eh!

Do you think that Monster Hunter Tri would be easy if it controlled like OoT?

I'm certainly not asking for something like a lock-on target system, I understand that that WOULD make Monster Hunter too easy. But I think that adjusting the little things like character turning speed and speeding up run speed a little would make the game more fun without sacrificing the difficulty



"Pier was a chef, a gifted and respected chef who made millions selling his dishes to the residents of New York City and Boston, he even had a famous jingle playing in those cities that everyone knew by heart. He also had a restaurant in Los Angeles, but not expecting LA to have such a massive population he only used his name on that restaurant and left it to his least capable and cheapest chefs. While his New York restaurant sold kobe beef for $100 and his Boston restaurant sold lobster for $50, his LA restaurant sold cheap hotdogs for $30. Initially these hot dogs sold fairly well because residents of los angeles were starving for good food and hoped that the famous name would denote a high quality, but most were disappointed with what they ate. Seeing the success of his cheap hot dogs in LA, Pier thought "why bother giving Los Angeles quality meats when I can oversell them on cheap hotdogs forever, and since I don't care about the product anyways, why bother advertising them? So Pier continued to only sell cheap hotdogs in LA and was surprised to see that they no longer sold. Pier's conclusion? Residents of Los Angeles don't like food."

"The so-called "hardcore" gamer is a marketing brainwashed, innovation shunting, self-righteous idiot who pays videogame makers far too much money than what is delivered."

Khuutra said:
KungKras said:
This is probably a little offtopic, But since we are into the subject of ALttP

I got stuck after I got to the darkworld for the first time.

There just isn't anywere to go from there. Could anyone tell me what I'm supposed to do?

Find a blue square to stand on, if I remember (I may not).

Oh, right I got to the darkworld and became rabbit first. I forgot about that. Sorry.

I meant the second time, when I get to the gold temple.



I LOVE ICELAND!

Khuutra said:

Let me just preface this so nobody gets the bright idea to come in here and say "YEAH OLD GAME DESIGN SUCKS LOLOLOL". That's not what this topic is about. If you're coming in here to say that, turn around and leave. There is no place for you here. Begone!

Who the heck is Begone?



I live for the burn...and the sting of pleasure...
I live for the sword, the steel, and the gun...

- Wasteland - The Mission.