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Forums - Sales - Geohot hate piracy and stuff

Scruff7 on 31 March 2010
zarx said:
Scruff7 said:
zarx said:
Scruff7 said:
zarx said:
Scruff7 said:
If someone were to buy one copy a game, and then sell it later as a second hand game, there is still one copy of that game, it has just changed owner.

A pirate may buy a game, and then produce many many copies of that game, sell them on for profit and probably keep the original. There are now many illegal copies of a game.

Which is wrong?

neither and both, in both cases there is still one copy sold the only difference is that more people get to use the copy faster in one example than the other.

I don't think we are going to see eye to eye on this issue, your view of what is right and what is wrong differs on this issue.

I feel that you are attempting to justify your use of illegal, pirated games, which i do not condone.

where did I say I condoned "illegal, pirated games" I want other people to try condone second hand games so I can argue with them for the fun of it while getting people to think about it. I would like for someone to admit that it is similar to piracy but I don't think anyone will and I don't actualy have a problem with anyone buying used games I do it myself I just want people to make an informed decision lol, oh and I found the Geohot hate to be over the to and un justified as I don't think he is even trying to allow pirated games on the PS3

second hand sales are a measured, predictable and understood risk that are accepted risk that can be mitigated against to some extent. pirated games are not and represent a significant threat to developers, publishers and platform holder business models.

You may be right, and sometime in the future publishers will have to change their business model, especially as developers will be able to circumvent them by releasing directly to their audience, in a similar way to the music industry.

I don't know whether the Geohot hate is justified or not. It concerns me that the Sony perceive this to be a significant enough risk to remove an application from their software as i would rather they did not. And I don't know if publishing what he has will really damage the industry or not, but he is a very capable hacker, he may not even have to allow pirated game to run on a PS3, but the information he is releasing may allow others to do that.

I don't know if people will agree with you or not, will you agree that pirating is wrong, and fundamentally different from second hand sales? Is this not comparable to car sales?

i wouldn't buy pirated games, but i know people who do and that's their decision, i'm not about to shop them though! I do sometimes buy second hand games though, but only where i can't find new versions, usually just for my PSP.

I will never say that piracy is always wrong just as I will never say that theft is always wrong (poor man stealing a loaf of bread to stop from starving) just as you buy used copies of games you can't get any other way some people download pirated copies of games that are not available to them but yea I would never buy a pirated copy of a game also but I would also not be so quick to judge someone in china buying a $2 copy of a game when it is the only reasonable way of them getting a copy because they only get enough money to spend that much on games in a week or even month after you take living costs into consideration, the only other way would be for him to steal a copy and that would hurt the retailer/customer who he stole it from far more than the pirated copy could hurt publishers.

ok, i can agree with that. most of it anyway. except maybe the lack of punctuation. my inner monologue almost suffocated ;)



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zarx on 31 March 2010

I will never say that piracy is always wrong just as I will never say that theft is always wrong (poor man stealing a loaf of bread to stop from starving) just as you buy used copies of games you can't get any other way some people download pirated copies of games that are not available to them but yea I would never buy a pirated copy of a game also but I would also not be so quick to judge someone in china buying a $2 copy of a game when it is the only reasonable way of them getting a copy because they only get enough money to spend that much on games in a week or even month after you take living costs into consideration, the only other way would be for him to steal a copy and that would hurt the retailer/customer who he stole it from far more than the pirated copy could hurt publishers.

ok, i can agree with that. most of it anyway. except maybe the lack of punctuation. my inner monologue almost suffocated ;)

yea sorry about that had a test to get to

 

oh and as for the geohot thing I thought people might come in to bash him some more



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chuchy on 31 March 2010

xplain These kid. What u are saying is that if I buy a copy of god of war collection from my friend that's the same as a pirate, but after finishing the collection I went ahead and bought GOW3. That's x-ample of how it helps. Also a person that had no clue what bioshock was he rented the first one loved it and bought the second one cuz it had online also. How is that pirating! Come on many ppl rent to first see how the game is. Now we shouldn't do any of those things so the developers can get screw just by stupid comments that some ppl think is right! Also if anyone has done it that means that they are pirates so might as well become a real one and hack the 38 million 360s and 68 million wiis out there. Or at least 1/3 of those ppl have actually bought a used game. Thanxs now in going to hack my 360 for these article since I'm already a pirate so might as well get a much as the others right! I'm really serious now I will hack the 360!!!



zarx on 31 March 2010
chuchy said:
xplain These kid. What u are saying is that if I buy a copy of god of war collection from my friend that's the same as a pirate, but after finishing the collection I went ahead and bought GOW3. That's x-ample of how it helps. Also a person that had no clue what bioshock was he rented the first one loved it and bought the second one cuz it had online also. How is that pirating! Come on many ppl rent to first see how the game is. Now we shouldn't do any of those things so the developers can get screw just by stupid comments that some ppl think is right! Also if anyone has done it that means that they are pirates so might as well become a real one and hack the 38 million 360s and 68 million wiis out there. Or at least 1/3 of those ppl have actually bought a used game. Thanxs now in going to hack my 360 for these article since I'm already a pirate so might as well get a much as the others right! I'm really serious now I will hack the 360!!!

no thats terrible way to look at it don't pirate games buy new man (well at least use the money you save by not buying used to save up and buy a game new), and for your example of why secondhand is good I can argue the same thing for pirates. one of my friends pirated half-life 2 he then went on to buy the orange box or someone pirates a copy of COD 4 and played it at a LAN and likes it so much that he buys a copy so he can play online or pirated god of war I and II then went on to buy god of war III.



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Wonktonodi on 31 March 2010
zarx said:
Wonktonodi said:
zarx said:
Wonktonodi said:
zarx said:
Akvod said:
zarx said:
Akvod said:
The difference is in consent. You can gain ownership, permanent or temporary, for free if you have the consent of the original owner.

Taking someone's property without their consent, is theft, a violation of their property rights, and their natural right as a human being. It is in essence, slavery, since you're making someone slave away creating something, and then just taking it away. It's not an issue of compensation either. It's CONSENT.

did you get consent from the publishers of all the games you have on sold? I bet you didn't so your consent argument has no validity if you got consent fine but if you did ask the publishers for consent I bet you wouldn't get it.

Wut? Lol, you're defining consent as me literally going to the creators (which include hundreds of workers) and asking can I buy this? No, we have a complex economic system, with money, and retailers. If you're going to argue that Best Buy sells games without the consent of the creator, or that there isn't implicit and understood consent between me and the dev when I bought from Best Buy is to destroy our modern economy.

And what do you mean I wouldn't get it? If I ask the devs if I can buy their product, they want to make money, they offer a price, and I accept, where is the obstacle?

Fuck it, if you're going to argue that my transaction wasn't consensual, about the most fundamental and unanimously agreed upon beliefs, if you're questioning basic economics, I give up, you can't be convinced.

 

I din't say creators I said publishers I think most devs would like you to experience the game and I didn't say ask for permission to buy the game where they get money I said get permission to buy the game from a second hand retailer.

 

the only reason that publishers don't shut all the places that sell second hand games down or at least try is because it is legal, I am not arguing it is illegal I am arguing that it is immoral.

what about buying a house from someone else instead of the developer?  a used car?  a used text book?  a movie?  at what point is it "moral" to buy something used and at what point is it "immoral" 

imagine if someone built a hose based on the same design by them selves lol

you missed the entire point there.  I was asking where you draw the line in your morality. 

but I don't want to draw a line I might cut myself lol I have puchused plenty of second hand games I am an immoral hypocrite but I refuse to draw arbitrary lines in the sand so you can tell me my view of morality is flawed and a hypocrite I know that already and as I said I reserve the right to use non sensical arguments to confuse the people arguing with me

yet you did make a line because there is one side that you have for moral and one side that is immoral.  Just because you don't say where the line is doesn't mean it's there. 

Just because a person makes something doesn't mean that get to forever have all rights to it  When it is sold or the right to use it is sold.  It no longer belongs to them.  Having the disk with a game on it is not the same as owning the game but having the disk is the right to use that game.  I can sell the disk to someone else and thus sell my right to it.  How moral would it be if every time it changes hands the person who made it gets money for it again?  They didn't add anything to it the dindny modify it or change it it's the same thing they already made.  If they don't want to make things in a medeum that makes a product that can be resold.  They shouldn't do it. Go for digital distribution.  Or do a buisiness that offers a service.  You can't resel or pirate a service.   Yet that's not the industry they are in.  So to reduce resales make a game that has more replay value make a game people will want to hold on to.  If people keep the game there won't be any choice but to buy new. 

Trying to blame this all on the consumer who buys used is crazy.  Not only that but trying to tell me it's imoral for me to sell a game to someone else.  So what if the only person gets money for me selling a game is me?  It's a copy of the game that the publisher put out onto the market and some of those products can wind up back on the market. 



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zarx on 31 March 2010
Wonktonodi said:
zarx said:
Wonktonodi said:
zarx said:
Wonktonodi said:
zarx said:
Akvod said:
zarx said:
Akvod said:
The difference is in consent. You can gain ownership, permanent or temporary, for free if you have the consent of the original owner.

Taking someone's property without their consent, is theft, a violation of their property rights, and their natural right as a human being. It is in essence, slavery, since you're making someone slave away creating something, and then just taking it away. It's not an issue of compensation either. It's CONSENT.

did you get consent from the publishers of all the games you have on sold? I bet you didn't so your consent argument has no validity if you got consent fine but if you did ask the publishers for consent I bet you wouldn't get it.

Wut? Lol, you're defining consent as me literally going to the creators (which include hundreds of workers) and asking can I buy this? No, we have a complex economic system, with money, and retailers. If you're going to argue that Best Buy sells games without the consent of the creator, or that there isn't implicit and understood consent between me and the dev when I bought from Best Buy is to destroy our modern economy.

And what do you mean I wouldn't get it? If I ask the devs if I can buy their product, they want to make money, they offer a price, and I accept, where is the obstacle?

Fuck it, if you're going to argue that my transaction wasn't consensual, about the most fundamental and unanimously agreed upon beliefs, if you're questioning basic economics, I give up, you can't be convinced.

 

I din't say creators I said publishers I think most devs would like you to experience the game and I didn't say ask for permission to buy the game where they get money I said get permission to buy the game from a second hand retailer.

 

the only reason that publishers don't shut all the places that sell second hand games down or at least try is because it is legal, I am not arguing it is illegal I am arguing that it is immoral.

what about buying a house from someone else instead of the developer?  a used car?  a used text book?  a movie?  at what point is it "moral" to buy something used and at what point is it "immoral" 

imagine if someone built a hose based on the same design by them selves lol

you missed the entire point there.  I was asking where you draw the line in your morality. 

but I don't want to draw a line I might cut myself lol I have puchused plenty of second hand games I am an immoral hypocrite but I refuse to draw arbitrary lines in the sand so you can tell me my view of morality is flawed and a hypocrite I know that already and as I said I reserve the right to use non sensical arguments to confuse the people arguing with me

yet you did make a line because there is one side that you have for moral and one side that is immoral.  Just because you don't say where the line is doesn't mean it's there. 

Just because a person makes something doesn't mean that get to forever have all rights to it  When it is sold or the right to use it is sold.  It no longer belongs to them.  Having the disk with a game on it is not the same as owning the game but having the disk is the right to use that game.  I can sell the disk to someone else and thus sell my right to it.  How moral would it be if every time it changes hands the person who made it gets money for it again?  They didn't add anything to it the dindny modify it or change it it's the same thing they already made.  If they don't want to make things in a medeum that makes a product that can be resold.  They shouldn't do it. Go for digital distribution.  Or do a buisiness that offers a service.  You can't resel or pirate a service.   Yet that's not the industry they are in.  So to reduce resales make a game that has more replay value make a game people will want to hold on to.  If people keep the game there won't be any choice but to buy new. 

Trying to blame this all on the consumer who buys used is crazy.  Not only that but trying to tell me it's imoral for me to sell a game to someone else.  So what if the only person gets money for me selling a game is me?  It's a copy of the game that the publisher put out onto the market and some of those products can wind up back on the market. 

good point but I think you will find that as soon as publishers can reasonably switch to all digital distribution they will, and publishers are already doing things to make it as hard as possible for you to resell games, looks at install limits and tying games to steam and other online accounts you think this will stay in the PC space? publishers are just using PC gamers as guinea pigs and soon they will be trying it in the console space it is only a matter of time until some of the games you buy will be tied to PSN or XBox Live and you will have to beg for it to be switched to a new account just like you have to do with steam games. 



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Severance on 31 March 2010

too bad for you i don't rent games



I live for the burn...and the sting of pleasure...
I live for the sword, the steel, and the gun...

- Wasteland - The Mission.

zarx on 31 March 2010
Severance said:
too bad for you i don't rent games

good for you and you don't buy used ether or pirate (rich bastard lol) eh well I am glad I have no trouble with that 



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Severance on 31 March 2010
zarx said:
Severance said:
too bad for you i don't rent games

good for you and you don't buy used ether or pirate (rich bastard lol) eh well I am glad I have no trouble with that 

i did buy used games (never will i do it again because of this )  and i am far from being a rich bastard , its just that other than music my hobby is video games, if i'm really a rich bastard i'd own all consoles by now!



I live for the burn...and the sting of pleasure...
I live for the sword, the steel, and the gun...

- Wasteland - The Mission.

Euphoria14 on 01 April 2010

The first Final Fantasy title I ever played was a rom from one of many rom sites around the internet. It was FFVI and I played it on my PC with ZSnes.

After that I realized that I loved JRPGs and Final Fantasy and have now purchased every single FF title released in the US as well as hundreds of other JRPG titles.


Piracy isn't all that bad. If it wasn't for a friend suggesting me to do so when I was 14 I most likely wouldn't be as big of a gamer as I am now and definitely wouldn't have bought as many titles as I have.

It's strange though for me because while I will pirate every now and again, sometimes to play a game that is said to be sooo bad, I won't buy any games used, unless of course it is out of print.



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