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Forums - Sales Discussion - Heavenly Sword sold about 1.5m but devs didn't break even

letsdance on 31 March 2010
Viper1 said:
letsdance said:
Viper1 said:
Where in the world are you getting a $35-40 million budget from?

And I already broke down for you how much Serkis was likely paid based on average pay for his production positions and high end pay for voice work.


1.5 million copies sold.

.5 in NA x 25 (How much they get per game if their contract aint shitty) = 12.5

HS turned budget in Aug. '08 so from Sept - Aug HS sold 700k

.68 x 25 = 17

HS ended with .85

.17 x 12 = 2

.06 x 25 = 1.5

2 + 1.5 + 17 + 12.5 = 33

And 90k shy from 1.5 so around 35 million.

LMAO.  Are you trying to reverse engineer their budget based on total sales and the lack of profitability from that total?

Look, I'm not trying to belittle you or make fun of you but you really need to do a but more research into video game budgeting.

 

Say the 23 employees are their full time positions that worked the full 4 years on the project.  Average salary is $70k.   That's just $6.44 million dollars.   Say they even doubled that to 46 employees for most of it.  You're still under $13 million.  Now let's speculate that they bought several million worth of all new equipment for the PS3 iteration.   Now add in my total I listed before for Andy Serkis, a few miscellaneous costs and you're still looking at less than $20 million.

 

 

 


Which would be low cost mid budget game which should break even after a couple hundred thousand.



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Viper1 on 31 March 2010
letsdance said:
Viper1 said:
letsdance said:
Viper1 said:
Where in the world are you getting a $35-40 million budget from?

And I already broke down for you how much Serkis was likely paid based on average pay for his production positions and high end pay for voice work.


1.5 million copies sold.

.5 in NA x 25 (How much they get per game if their contract aint shitty) = 12.5

HS turned budget in Aug. '08 so from Sept - Aug HS sold 700k

.68 x 25 = 17

HS ended with .85

.17 x 12 = 2

.06 x 25 = 1.5

2 + 1.5 + 17 + 12.5 = 33

And 90k shy from 1.5 so around 35 million.

LMAO.  Are you trying to reverse engineer their budget based on total sales and the lack of profitability from that total?

Look, I'm not trying to belittle you or make fun of you but you really need to do a but more research into video game budgeting.

 

Say the 23 employees are their full time positions that worked the full 4 years on the project.  Average salary is $70k.   That's just $6.44 million dollars.   Say they even doubled that to 46 employees for most of it.  You're still under $13 million.  Now let's speculate that they bought several million worth of all new equipment for the PS3 iteration.   Now add in my total I listed before for Andy Serkis, a few miscellaneous costs and you're still looking at less than $20 million.


Which would be low cost mid budget game which should break even after a couple hundred thousand.

My point is why are trying to say the game has twice the budget of Uncharted or somewhere between $30-40 million?



The rEVOLution is not being televised

Kasz216 on 31 March 2010
letsdance said:
Kasz216 said:
letsdance said:
Kasz216 said:
letsdance said:
Kasz216 said:
letsdance said:
Kasz216 said:
letsdance said:
So guys... who know everything. Where did the money go?

Ninja Theory was a team of 23 in '04. They ended up with a 6 hour game. The cost is probablly close to double Uncharted's budget... so... your telling me voicing only cost a couple grand... the length is well below average... everything else is decent... yet it has a massive budget. I guess managent is putting their coke and prostitutes under the development cost eh?

I'm sorry. I stand by the voicing for this game has taken up more than its fair share of the budget. Its the only thing different than other games yet has a higher cost.

Viper and Twesterm actually work in the games Industry.  You know this right?  The Lol was just in direct response to your "The developers probably made a couple million each." if you didn't know.

You can maintain your position, but at this point... unless the actual people from Ninja Theory back you up.  Your on shakey ground.


Shaky ground? I'm sorry... 30 - 40 million is way too much for even 23 people doing coke for 3 years, They had to spend it on something else

Of which... you assume it's voice acting... which Viper stated was silly.  When people in the industry shut down your arguement... it's time to shut down your arguement.  You don't do yourself any service otherwise.

At this rate, I imagine if the Ninja Theory guys themselves say they didn't pay him millions you would assume they are lieing simply because they are embarressed.

 

Also, the game development started in 2002.


Ninja Theories original name was "Just Add Monsters".

02 - 04 = 3 million bucks. IF that. High budget Wii games are said to have a budget of 7 million. Wii is said to have a higher budget than ps2/xbox. High budget Ps2 games are said to be 5 million. So even if it started in '02 there is still 35 million somewhere else

3 Million bucks.  Hey that's about how much you said Andy got... before you knew there was an Xbox version.  Also a PC version... also an Xbox 360 version.

They made 3 versions of the game before settling on PS3 exclusivity.  You don't think that's a bit costly?  

As for the 23 people... take a look at HS's credits.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/ps3/heavenly-sword/credits

I see a few more then 23.  Not to mention your assuming 30-40 million when it could just as eaisly be... Sony screwed them in their deal.

Regardless, your using blind speculation against what actual experts have said. 

If they aren't doing any actual work on the game then no it isn't costly (especially since they probablly where developing it with a generic code that could be ported easily between the 3 since we hear about how similiar xbox is to a PC) and I said 23 in '04.

Once again, you offer nothing but base assumption... why do you keep argueing in the face of actual knowledgable opinion with simple base assumptions.  Your reminding me of those people who argue against evolution... I'm just done, I think it says something that you are argueing completly alone and that many people are argueing against you, including knowledeable people in the industry, and yet you still hold to your opinion which is basde on nothing but blind assumptions.

I really do believe nothing would convince you otherwise even if Andy Serkis was produced via youtube video clip saying "I didn't even make a million dollars doing heavenly sword."

 

Well the money went somewhere.

I'm assuming that they had 23 employees in '04?

"Ninja Theory Ltd. has acquired all the former Just Add Monster technologies, including the next-generation Heavenly Sword intellectual property, and the entire 23-person development team, allowing it to continue the work it was doing under Argonaut's financial and organizational aegis."

So in '02 - '04 they had 23 employees. 2 years worth of work no matter how many times they flip-floped between development with 23 employees wouldn't take much money at all.

Better yet "Heavenly Sword has been in development since early 2003" So 1 year of dev time with 23 employees would cost very little.

I've just now provided with more evidence than you have in this entire thread... oh wait... you provided that link which actually harms your stance.

Except... you haven't.  You haven't actually provided anything.

Heck you haven't even accounted for the possibility that Sony just gave them a poor deal when it came to publishing.  You are making a base speculation stating one very unlikely thing was the cause for their loss of money when there are tons of reasons it could have cost them so much money.

Heck your even ignoring the reasons Tameem stated for it costing so much in the first place.  They state engine building and creation of new technology being one of their biggest costs.  I'd just wait for what viper says... me I'm going to believe the guy who can talk to the developer of Ninja theory, then a guy who is a random poster on the internet.



letsdance on 31 March 2010
Viper1 said:
letsdance said:
Viper1 said:
letsdance said:
Viper1 said:
Where in the world are you getting a $35-40 million budget from?

And I already broke down for you how much Serkis was likely paid based on average pay for his production positions and high end pay for voice work.


1.5 million copies sold.

.5 in NA x 25 (How much they get per game if their contract aint shitty) = 12.5

HS turned budget in Aug. '08 so from Sept - Aug HS sold 700k

.68 x 25 = 17

HS ended with .85

.17 x 12 = 2

.06 x 25 = 1.5

2 + 1.5 + 17 + 12.5 = 33

And 90k shy from 1.5 so around 35 million.

LMAO.  Are you trying to reverse engineer their budget based on total sales and the lack of profitability from that total?

Look, I'm not trying to belittle you or make fun of you but you really need to do a but more research into video game budgeting.

 

Say the 23 employees are their full time positions that worked the full 4 years on the project.  Average salary is $70k.   That's just $6.44 million dollars.   Say they even doubled that to 46 employees for most of it.  You're still under $13 million.  Now let's speculate that they bought several million worth of all new equipment for the PS3 iteration.   Now add in my total I listed before for Andy Serkis, a few miscellaneous costs and you're still looking at less than $20 million.


Which would be low cost mid budget game which should break even after a couple hundred thousand.

My point is why are trying to say the game has twice the budget of Uncharted or somewhere between $30-40 million?


I've always thought HS blew through money after playing it. Its one of the few games that feel like it has the production values as a mainstream hollywood film.  This guy just saying they havent broke even yet makes me believe that more. We have never heard of anyne complain about partnership with Sony. In fact, we hear the complete opposite all the time. Sony is supposidly an awesome publisher to work for. I don't believe Sony would have treated Ninja Theory with any less professionalism than lets say insomniac, level 5, or media molecule. HS was one of PS3's flagships in '07.



letsdance on 31 March 2010
Kasz216 said:
letsdance said:
Kasz216 said:
letsdance said:
Kasz216 said:
letsdance said:
Kasz216 said:
letsdance said:
Kasz216 said:
letsdance said:
So guys... who know everything. Where did the money go?

Ninja Theory was a team of 23 in '04. They ended up with a 6 hour game. The cost is probablly close to double Uncharted's budget... so... your telling me voicing only cost a couple grand... the length is well below average... everything else is decent... yet it has a massive budget. I guess managent is putting their coke and prostitutes under the development cost eh?

I'm sorry. I stand by the voicing for this game has taken up more than its fair share of the budget. Its the only thing different than other games yet has a higher cost.

Viper and Twesterm actually work in the games Industry.  You know this right?  The Lol was just in direct response to your "The developers probably made a couple million each." if you didn't know.

You can maintain your position, but at this point... unless the actual people from Ninja Theory back you up.  Your on shakey ground.


Shaky ground? I'm sorry... 30 - 40 million is way too much for even 23 people doing coke for 3 years, They had to spend it on something else

Of which... you assume it's voice acting... which Viper stated was silly.  When people in the industry shut down your arguement... it's time to shut down your arguement.  You don't do yourself any service otherwise.

At this rate, I imagine if the Ninja Theory guys themselves say they didn't pay him millions you would assume they are lieing simply because they are embarressed.

 

Also, the game development started in 2002.


Ninja Theories original name was "Just Add Monsters".

02 - 04 = 3 million bucks. IF that. High budget Wii games are said to have a budget of 7 million. Wii is said to have a higher budget than ps2/xbox. High budget Ps2 games are said to be 5 million. So even if it started in '02 there is still 35 million somewhere else

3 Million bucks.  Hey that's about how much you said Andy got... before you knew there was an Xbox version.  Also a PC version... also an Xbox 360 version.

They made 3 versions of the game before settling on PS3 exclusivity.  You don't think that's a bit costly?  

As for the 23 people... take a look at HS's credits.

http://www.mobygames.com/game/ps3/heavenly-sword/credits

I see a few more then 23.  Not to mention your assuming 30-40 million when it could just as eaisly be... Sony screwed them in their deal.

Regardless, your using blind speculation against what actual experts have said. 

If they aren't doing any actual work on the game then no it isn't costly (especially since they probablly where developing it with a generic code that could be ported easily between the 3 since we hear about how similiar xbox is to a PC) and I said 23 in '04.

Once again, you offer nothing but base assumption... why do you keep argueing in the face of actual knowledgable opinion with simple base assumptions.  Your reminding me of those people who argue against evolution... I'm just done, I think it says something that you are argueing completly alone and that many people are argueing against you, including knowledeable people in the industry, and yet you still hold to your opinion which is basde on nothing but blind assumptions.

I really do believe nothing would convince you otherwise even if Andy Serkis was produced via youtube video clip saying "I didn't even make a million dollars doing heavenly sword."

 

Well the money went somewhere.

I'm assuming that they had 23 employees in '04?

"Ninja Theory Ltd. has acquired all the former Just Add Monster technologies, including the next-generation Heavenly Sword intellectual property, and the entire 23-person development team, allowing it to continue the work it was doing under Argonaut's financial and organizational aegis."

So in '02 - '04 they had 23 employees. 2 years worth of work no matter how many times they flip-floped between development with 23 employees wouldn't take much money at all.

Better yet "Heavenly Sword has been in development since early 2003" So 1 year of dev time with 23 employees would cost very little.

I've just now provided with more evidence than you have in this entire thread... oh wait... you provided that link which actually harms your stance.

Except... you haven't.  You haven't actually provided anything.

Heck you haven't even accounted for the possibility that Sony just gave them a poor deal when it came to publishing.  You are making a base speculation stating one very unlikely thing was the cause for their loss of money when there are tons of reasons it could have cost them so much money.

Heck your even ignoring the reasons Tameem stated for it costing so much in the first place.  They state engine building and creation of new technology being one of their biggest costs.  I'd just wait for what viper says... me I'm going to believe the guy who can talk to the developer of Ninja theory, then a guy who is a random poster on the internet.


This is when I stop taking you seriously and laugh in your face. Yer a real hoot guy.

"You are making a base speculation stating one very unlikely thing was the cause for their loss of money when there are tons of reasons it could have cost them so much money."

I didn't realize that naming 4 other reasons for a high budget was "stating one thing was the cause for their loss"

LOL... oh man your funny



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huaxiong90 on 31 March 2010

I call bad management.



Rockstar: Announce Bully 2 already and make gamers proud!

Kojima: Come out with Project S already!

letsdance on 31 March 2010
huaxiong90 said:
I call bad management.


Bad management is obviously it. But that categorizes so many things. Who they hire, how much they pay, and not forcing/encouraging employees to meet deadlines among various other things

And back to Kas I dont see anywhere where he mentions developing new tech.



huaxiong90 on 31 March 2010
letsdance said:
huaxiong90 said:
I call bad management.


Bad management is obviously it. But that categorizes so many things. Who they hire, how much they pay, and not forcing/encouraging employees to meet deadlines among various other things

And back to Kas I dont see anywhere where he mentions developing new tech.

Yeah, I know. But they have nobody to blame but themselves. Going multiplat won't save them. Look at what happened to Namco Bandai with Tekken 6.



Rockstar: Announce Bully 2 already and make gamers proud!

Kojima: Come out with Project S already!

Kasz216 on 31 March 2010
letsdance said:
huaxiong90 said:
I call bad management.


Bad management is obviously it. But that categorizes so many things. Who they hire, how much they pay, and not forcing/encouraging employees to meet deadlines among various other things

And back to Kas I dont see anywhere where he mentions developing new tech.

So you didn't bother to read the CVG interview?

So is Enslaved going to be a bigger-budget investment to compete with the blockbusters?
I wouldn't say that. We spent a lot of time and effort developing technology for Heavenly Sword from scratch because there weren't any engines. So we've got up and running a lot quicker for this game.

I think the costs for next-gen games are stabilising. But in the old days the PSone and PS2 were so dominant you could be exclusive. Nowadays I think it's much harder.



Viper1 on 31 March 2010
letsdance said:
Viper1 said:

My point is why are trying to say the game has twice the budget of Uncharted or somewhere between $30-40 million?


I've always thought HS blew through money after playing it. Its one of the few games that feel like it has the production values as a mainstream hollywood film.  This guy just saying they havent broke even yet makes me believe that more. We have never heard of anyne complain about partnership with Sony. In fact, we hear the complete opposite all the time. Sony is supposidly an awesome publisher to work for. I don't believe Sony would have treated Ninja Theory with any less professionalism than lets say insomniac, level 5, or media molecule. HS was one of PS3's flagships in '07.

But you are forgetting that Ninja Theory developed most of the game before Sony jumped on as publisher.   Coming aboard late in development changes the funding dynamics greatly.  Typically a publsiher pays for development either all up front, quarterly or via milestone installments.  When a publisher comes on late, they work out a deal to pay a certain revenue percentage to the developer.  Sometimes not until after a certain sales milestone, sometimes with sales milestone bonuses.  All depends on the contract.

But even with all the production values, a programmer and artist are paid the same as any other programmer or artist regardless of the end result package.  I've read the team size varied from 23 to 200.  Obviously not all 200 worked on the game all 4 yeas or all at the same time or even all on Heavenly Sword.  But based on the variables given, $25 million is as high as I'll concde as probably budget.



The rEVOLution is not being televised