Welp, now I went and read the bill - leastways, the summary on the link that you posted - and I remain unconvinced of the body of your assertions, here.

I tell you what, Mafoo. I will make only five more posts in this topic following this one - you can have as many as you want, but anything I could say, I will say in five posts, and after that my posts will be useless. If I have more to say after that five, tough titty, that's my problem. I will have five posts.

Let me start by asking you this:

What section or provision in this bill makes you think that this will make insurance more expensive for the little guy, as in someone like my grandmother?

Please don't make leaps in logic on this one, I want you to refer specifically to areas of the bill that make youo think this way - cite sections, if you are able. Today I am going to have things clarified for me.

This will not benefit my family at all, which sucks.

How does this bill help you get healthcare?  Have you actually read it?

It "helps" you get health insurance by FORCING you to get health insurance... and hoping that by forcing you to get health insurances costs may go down.

First off, as a child I was always taught to look before you leap and it has always been the right choice. Far too often do people jump head first into something, and because they don’t understand the risks or anticipate the problems it blows up in their face. We’re currently in a major financial crisis that was caused by the government “Diving head first into the chaos that is progress” and encouraging home ownership while deregulating banks; and from individuals who didn’t look before they leapt and were surprised when they found out their sub-prime mortgage had a rate reset and home prices don’t rise forever.

For the most part, there is very little difference between support for abortion from men or women; but the lowest levels of support for abortion tend to be from women who have children who are of child bearing age (basically the age most women in politics would be). Its not difficult to see why this is the case being that a women who has a 16 year old daughter would have a very different perspective on having an abortion than her mother would, in a large part because her mother understands the consequences of her daughter’s actions; and potentially would be worried that her daughter may make that choice out of fear or embarrassment.

I'm not Mafoo, but as you know... I love to argue... and I like doing it with (what i hope) are well constructed examples.  Allow me... going right down the bill in order... well after the "BIG ONE" of course.  (Section 211)  I've read the whole bill, but i'll be going off a summary because I really don't feel like reading that monster again.

1)  Right now Insurance companies make a profit margin a profit margin of 3.4%.

So, I pay a little over 100 dollars a month for healthcare.   So every month they make a profit of $3.40 cents off of me, and everyone else in my bracket.

Now they are being told that peoople with prexisting conditions have to be insured... AND they have to be charged the same price as everyone else in their age group.  So someone my age, whether they smoke, have congential heart diesease, etc... pays the same amount.

Before this bill, your rate rised based on their profit margins.  People were priced out of the market with prexisting conditions because no profit could be made off them without charging them 500+ a month.   This is why these people don't get funded today despite the fact that over 40% of private healthcare is non profit.  There is pretty much no way to even break even on a lot of these people.

There is only two options here.  Raise rates, or pay the hospitals lower...  Which brings me to point 1B

1B) Hospitals make a profit margin of 3.6% per person.  So when a healthcare company pays them 76 dollars for an X-ray... the healthcare company makes $2.74.   This is why Non-profit hospitals aren't any cheaper then for profit hospitals... so how then do the expect costs to be lowered?  That's 1C and 1D.

1C) They expect costs to be lowered because insurance companies are going to have to compete with each other harder... because the government is now going to do the research for you to find the best health insurance.  As already show though... there isn't much room TO cut for insurance companies.

1D) Creates a comission to study insurance company premium raises and approve or deny them.  Once again, due to the small and pretty consistant profit margin insurance companies make.  So profit margins are going to be fixed at about 3.4%

2) (sec 105) Children are allowed on their parents plans for an additional 4 more years.  Maybe it differes per plan but I was covered till about 22.  Pretty much the same reasoning as above as that's 4 more years of expected coverage per young child... many of whom have prexisting conditions.

3) (sec 109) Prohibits healthcare plans from having a dollar cap in what they pay lifetime.  People can get cheaper insurance by going with one of these plans.  These people are all being bumped up to

4) (Sec 201) Sets requirments on what  healthcare plan should be. Anyone who chose a cheaper plan who doesn't meet requirements like that.  For example, doesn't cover healicopter transport because they love by a hospitals, chose less in hopsital care etc... will be bumped up into the standard plan.

5) (sec 212) Pretty much sec 211 but makes it so that companies can't deny members of their company coverage based on the same reasons.  Raising insurance costs provided by companies.

6) (sec 213) basically sex 211 but makes it so that companies can't charge people with prexisting conditions more.  Raising insurance costs provided by companies.

7) (215-217) Also copies of the above for buisnesses applied to buisnesses.

8)  (235) requires pompt payment of services based on Medicare standards.  This will require hiring more people to process the forms, which means to keep that above 3.4% margin... rates have to go up.  It should be noted that most Medicare plans don't even pay on time as set by medicare.  So maybe this will be ignored?

You know.  I'm actually kinda tired... and 8 i think is a good place to start with since getting into a giant ass list is just going to bog things down.

How are we going to pay for all of this. Taxes,and more taxes. If people think that this bill is going to reduce the defecit,then there sadly mistaken. The democrats just determined there fate this November. I'm watching news about this as I type this. lol

Actually the stuff that raises taxes is completly different. list   This is the stuff that's going to raise costs for regular people.  The taxes stuff is going to be the creations of the different commisoners and departments and such.

Although, granted they may have to raise taxes since the average cosnsumer is going to be higher just so they can offer MORE subsidies.

If the insurance companies respond to this with higher rates, or any change for the worse really, the blame is going to fall on them, not on the law.

The wheels towards single-payer are in motion.

A bit confused ...The bill pass but if the republicans come back they can change it again?

Why was their no referendum about this? I know that referendums are not always a good thing to do but in ths case I think it would be a good one.

(and if their was one forget my comment)

Agreed. After all, when WellPoint raised their rates as a result of California insurance regulations, Obama successfully used that as a starting point to resurrect his health care agenda. Surely nationalizing those same (more or less) regulatory standards won't result in the same thing happening on a national scale, and if it does, well... well... it surely isn't the governments fault!

The wheels toward something are in motion.