Thanks for the post your dicussion solve my problem..

heprof00 said said:

They do the exact same thing. The entire idea of "elite" or "pro" models does exactly the same thing. In fact, Sony probably took the idea from MS in teh first place!

The point was why didn't Xbox do it more often? Sony have almost twice as many SKUs (almost 2 different SKU per PS3 generation) as Xbox 360. Xbox on the other hand, only updates their SKU once every year at most.

You are really, severely misinformed, wlakiz.

KEEP IN MIND ABOVE THAT THE PS3 MODELS ARE SEPARATED BY REGION. HALF OF THOSE MODELS ARE THE EXACT SAME MODEL SOLD IN A DIFFERENT REGION. 360 HAS THE EXACT SAME THING. TAKE THE NUMBER OF 360 MODELS SHOWN ABOVE AND DOUBLE THEM. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT FOR MOST OF ITS LIFE, 360 HAS HAD 3! MODELS ON THE MARKET AT THE SAME TIME, WHEREAS PS3 HAS ONLY HAD TWO.

First, you'll have to provide source on how much XBox lost vs PS3 lost. Secondly, what are you talking about? I am talking about undercutting PS3's 250gb with their own 250gb which is priced at $400 atm. Both are considered 'complete package' yet the Xbox chose a higher price point on their top SKU, when they should be at least matching the 250gb SKU from Sony.

I don't know where the LTD graph is, but this is end of Fiscal Year 2008, aka, September 2008.

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/2009_fiscal_year

Year end 2009, xbox = 169m$, Sony -600m$

Do the math.

No, they lose money when there is excess supply. Vendors don't want to purchase 250gb when their warehouses are stocked piled with them. Sony's production factories output pretty much a constant number of PS3s/month. They expect to ship all of them out but they can't if the vendors don't want them.

NO, THEY DONT MAINTAIN CONSTANT NUMBER. THERE HAVE BEEN PERIODS IN EVERY VG COMPANY WHERE THEY DON'T PRODUCE ANYTHING FOR MONTHS AT A TIME. Additionally, you have no idea how many are being made at all. You have no idea what a "regular" stock is. You call 250g "excess" but it's not excess. It's just that there are a lot of 250s out there compared to 120s (Sony hasn't been able to keep up with demand on the 120s, so there is a shortage. That doesn't mean the 250 is in excess. It means that there are more, comparitively.

Again, vendors don't want them when they have stockpiled of 250gb in their warehouses.

above.

We are strictly talking about the amount they suit for. If the piece of technology is only deemed to  worth 1% then the judge will only grant that 1%. However, apperently both rumble and rim keyboard is worth way more than just 1%.

Also, production is usually never halted until the judge deemed that the an infrigement was made and even so, Sony or Rim or MS would just appeal and the get case re-examined. Thats how microsoft usually get though their infrigement lawsuits... they just re-appeal and eventually after 5 or so years of lawsuit battle, the plantiff would either end up bankrupt or they lose the battle.

Well first of all, did you just compared the PS3 to a plastic fliptop? Secondly No, the quote did not put "for a piece of hardware" (Do you even know what is a plastic flip top? hereis a picture: http://www.plastcaps.com/photo/1/28mm-plastic-flip-top-caps-yl-ft28.jpg, see the plastic lid that flips up?). Thirdly, did you deliberately ignore the other more relevent royalty rates like say :

You said that the ps3 was made up of little components from every other company (or something like that). The rates they pay for those things are fractions of a percentage, not 15% as you insist.

15% or more.  Software licensing royalty rate paid by Dell Computers for highly marketable products

This above has nothing to do with the Sony situation. This is what Dell pays to get licensed software, games, OS, etc etc. Notice it says "highly marketable". This includes things like having Windows/Office/Photoshop on the computer.

or

% to 12% of sales for well-known brands.  “Attorneys who deal with licensing issues said most companies that license well-known brands pay a royalty rate of 8 percent to 12 percent of sales.

Brands. Disney. Licensing. I already wrote that. That is what developers pay to make games based on movies or other games. Again, nothing to do with Sony paying licensing fees for a product. Brand fees are for making use of a brand image because a brand image is worth money because it's recognizable and has an established audience and will increase sales. This is not the same as licensing technology or codecs, even if it has similar implications.

heprof00 said said:

You are really, severely misinformed, wlakiz.

KEEP IN MIND ABOVE THAT THE PS3 MODELS ARE SEPARATED BY REGION. HALF OF THOSE MODELS ARE THE EXACT SAME MODEL SOLD IN A DIFFERENT REGION. 360 HAS THE EXACT SAME THING. TAKE THE NUMBER OF 360 MODELS SHOWN ABOVE AND DOUBLE THEM. NOT ONLY THAT, BUT FOR MOST OF ITS LIFE, 360 HAS HAD 3! MODELS ON THE MARKET AT THE SAME TIME, WHEREAS PS3 HAS ONLY HAD TWO.

What exactly are you trying to show here? The core componenets of Xbox Skus have always been the same, they did a HDD upgrade (adding elite, replacing core, and upgrading Premium only once every 2 years), Sony on the other hand throws out at least 2 different HDD models per 'redesign': http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ps3#Model_comparison . In Comparison, Sony had more SKUs and HDD upgrade than Xbox, although they phase out their old models faster.

I don't know where the LTD graph is, but this is end of Fiscal Year 2008, aka, September 2008.

http://vgsales.wikia.com/wiki/2009_fiscal_year

Year end 2009, xbox = 169m$, Sony -600m$

Do the math.

You need to label your graphs/tables better.. What am I looking at? Is this consoles only or handheld or both? This generation only or includes the previous one? How does this show that "If you think Sony has lost a lot of money, MS has lost double that"? You still remember we are still just talking about Xbox 360 and Ps3 right?

NO, THEY DONT MAINTAIN CONSTANT NUMBER. THERE HAVE BEEN PERIODS IN EVERY VG COMPANY WHERE THEY DON'T PRODUCE ANYTHING FOR MONTHS AT A TIME. Additionally, you have no idea how many are being made at all. You have no idea what a "regular" stock is. You call 250g "excess" but it's not excess. It's just that there are a lot of 250s out there compared to 120s (Sony hasn't been able to keep up with demand on the 120s, so there is a shortage. That doesn't mean the 250 is in excess. It means that there are more, comparitively.

Well, now you are saying that for some period of time, Sony, Microsoft and Nintendo don't produce anything. What do they do with all their factory workers? fire them ? Paid vacation? I am curious, do you even know the definition of "excess supply"? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Excess_supply -> "the quantity supplied exceeds the quantity demanded" I think that bit quite explains why there is "a lot of 250g out there compared to 120gb".

Not going to argue this anymore. They paid a lot because it happened in court. End of story.

And thats all the evidence you have? no links or statistics to show difference between court settlement and actual license cost? 

You said that the ps3 was made up of little components from every other company (or something like that). The rates they pay for those things are fractions of a percentage, not 15% as you insist.

Ok, if we go that route, lets say nut and bolt, hinges, Dram, efuses, cell processors, etc.. all cost 0.5% royalty each multuply that by say.. 30.. and you get 15%.

This above has nothing to do with the Sony situation. This is what Dell pays to get licensed software, games, OS, etc etc. Notice it says "highly marketable". This includes things like having Windows/Office/Photoshop on the computer.

or

Brands. Disney. Licensing. I already wrote that. That is what developers pay to make games based on movies or other games. Again, nothing to do with Sony paying licensing fees for a product. Brand fees are for making use of a brand image because a brand image is worth money because it's recognizable and has an established audience and will increase sales. This is not the same as licensing technology or codecs, even if it has similar implications.

Popular software Brand... highly marketable.. you mean like.. Twitter, Facebook(and yes, these all come with firmware 3.0 so it should be paid per console) , netflix. FF13 characters in PS Home.. these count right?

You are hopeless. You come up with these strange goalposts in the face of proof and then make up your own numbers despite demanding links from me.

While the 360 doesn't change the hard drives that often, they bundle different software, they change the internal fans, processor type AND size, different power supplies etc etc. And yet you claim that Sony has had more changes because of HDD upgrades? Do you even remember what we were talking about? We were talking about price increases over different models. It just happened to focus on HDD because we were talking about the ps3, but MS did the same when it switched processors, decreased die size, changed fans, different power supplies, added wifi or even ADDED a hard drive. The difference between the old core and elite was maybe 15-25$, but the price increase was over 100$! This is our argument, do not fall off topic. MS routinely uses different models and price points to "trick" the consumer. However, like I mentioned earlier, you can ONLY use 360 brand hard-drives on the 360 (whereas you can use ANY harddrive on the ps3), and you can ONLY use 360 brand wifi. Each of those is 100$, so it IS a deal to buy the elite over the core or arcade. MS is, if anything, MORE about doing what Sony does, than Sony is.

The whole point of bringing up the price was to point out that the reason why MS isn't being as price competitive is because they are trying to be profitable. They don't care about bringing the elite price down because they've lost so much already. This has nothing to do with current gen or last gen cherry picking, it's about them being in the position to focus on profit rather than competition.

And yes, those factory workers do indeed get vacations! And yes, I'm familiar with the concept of excess supply, but I wrote "excess" in quotes because I thought you were taking too much from the wording. Yes the 250g supply does exceed the demand, for now, but it isn't that much. They will be sold. I already said that as well. The purpose of having excess supply, especially in this case, is that when there is a shortage on 120s, and three of the biggest games of the year come out in 1 month or so, a lot of customers become more willing to spend more if they can't find a 120. I already said this too. Don't be confused, while at the moment it is excess supply, it will be bought. Also, consider this. If you produce a lot of products as quickly as possible, you save money. So, you actually save money by having initial excess. If you produce a small amount over a longer period, it's more costly. I'm sure you are familiar with economy of scale so I won't bore you with the details.

"Some people avoid getting permission because they don't understand the permissions process or consider it too expensive. However, the process is not difficult and the fee for use of common text, photo, or artwork is commonly under $200 per use. In some cases, it's free. On the other hand, the legal fees for dealing with an unauthorized use lawsuit can easily cost ten to 50 times the average permission expense -- or more!"

http://www.nolo.com/products/getting-permission-RIPER.html

As if it even matters that I have a link.

Again, you just made up a percentage per part and made up a number of parts. You realize though, that you are still supporting the stupidest idea in the history of vgc, where Sony is paying ~150$ per console for licensing...on TOP of the ~336$component cost. Anyone and everyone on this site can tell you how wrong you are here wlakiz.

Facebook is free. Twitter is free. Netflix MAKES money off the ps3. ff13 characters help promote the game's sales. All of these things ARE negotiated, but likely, none of them is paid for. Facebook doesn't charge to use it's site for computers or mobile phones.

http://twitter.com/tos

under "Your Rights"

"Twitter gives you a personal, worldwide, royalty-free, non-assignable and non-exclusive license to use the software that is provided to you by Twitter as part of the Services. This license is for the sole purpose of enabling you to use and enjoy the benefit of the Services as provided by Twitter, in the manner permitted by these Terms."

So, we finally got a rough SKU breakdown for Feb via NPD... it's basically 2:1 for 120GB:250GB. Anyone want to do some fuzzy math with rough regional sales and (currency converted) pricepoints for Feb, and the 6 cents per dollar loss, and try to figure out the exact loss per SKU? I'd do it, but... ugh, math. :/

well, ps3 120g is supposedly losing 36$ as of 6 months ago, but since we have no new numbers, and since that price doesn't include licensing, I'll keep it at 36$. So, out of three consoles, in a static currency environment, the 250g is making 15$ per console.

However, American sales lose 10 yen (9 cents) on every dollar due to currency, but Euro makes about 27 yen (25 cents) per dollar and pound makes about 35 yen (32 cents) per dollar.

VGChartz Hardware data for the period 06th Sep 2009 to 13th Mar 2010:

VGChartz Hardware data for the period 06th Sep 2009 to 13th Mar 2010:

Total: 770,801 @+32 cents per dollar

VGChartz Hardware data for the period 06th Sep 2009 to 13th Mar 2010:

Total: 2,281,147 @+22 cents per dollar

VGChartz Hardware data for the period 06th Sep 2009 to 13th Mar 2010:

Total:3.9m at -10cents per dollar.

3.9m x 10= 390k in currency loss

Euro=2.28m x 22 cents= 501k gain

Pound= 700k x 32 cents=224k gain

total= 330k gain.

distributed over 7m units= .047 cents per dollar gain.

for a 300$ system, that's 14$ gain for 350 it's 16.45$ gain.

Translate that back into the 36$ loss per 120g over a 2:1 ratio and we get

14+14+16.45=44.65

minus 36$ cost per 120g

36-36-n= 72+n

@ 6 cents loss per dollar on hardware statement, we get 57$ over 2:1 sales. 57$ covers all costs, so we can subtract everything else and find the gain.

57$-36-36-n-44.65=-59.65-n

obviously this points out that the 36$ number is incorrect, because profit is spilling over into the 120g. So, throw that all out.

57$ loss on a 2:1 ratio. facoring in .047 cents per dollar currency gain= 12.35$ loss on 2:1 ratio sales. For 250g to be losing money (.01 cents), the 120g must cost 6.17$ to make.

But this is all just fuzzy math, and not very accurate at that. I didn't factor in exactly when the 250g appeared, and generalized the 2:1 ratio. More accurately, the .047 is lower, and would become 20-30$ loss on 2:1 ratio. Which would mean 120=15$ loss 250=.01 cent loss. OR 120g=20$ loss 250g 10$ profit, which makes more sense by a 30$ profit increase differential.

Well, first of all, 30 is not really a made up number.. its the number of components broken down from the PS3 motherboard http://www.chipworks.com/uploadedFiles/Technical_Competitive_Analysis/Capabilities/Sony_Playstation_report%20%282%29.pdf

I am trying to dig into the patents of each part, to see which parts is susceptible to royalty fees. So far, I only got the Rambus memory that Ps3 uses, and according to http://www.electronicsweekly.com/Articles/2009/06/12/46275/rambus-to-cut-dram-royalty-charges-in-eu-settlement.htm, Rambus memory's royalty for DDR type memory is at 2.65%, PS3 uses XDR which i would assume would be at a slightly higher royalty rate (maybe 3%?) due to the technology being at a 'higher class'. A lot of the components are unknown and royalty rates are mostly unpublished, so its going to take a while.. feel free to help if you are insterested in the data.

Secondly, we were talking about profitablity in changing the HDD. Microsoft doesn't do it often thats a fact. They never had a 40gb , 80gb or the 160gb like the PS3.

Thirdly, when exactly are these production blackout months (got examples of one?). This is the first time I heard of a company that just shuts down their factory for a couple months and pay all their workers vacation time off. If you mean that demand will increase in subsequent days/months such that all 250gb will be sold out as well, then I will agree that 250gb is not at excess.

Fourthly, if you read the quote again, it says "Legal Fees" that is different from amount that the plantiff is charging the defendent. Technically, if any company plans to sue another company they make sure it is worth the legal fees. Again, Immersion got that much because the royalty + interest was worth that much not because it went to court; MS settled about the same amount outside of court and saved on the legal fees.

Finally, there is a difference between personal use and marketing. Sony markets Facebook and Twitter to boost their own product sales. If you re-read twitter tos, Twitter gives you a personal, worldwide, royalty-free..." the key word is personal. They probably have their own terms for companies that want to port their brand into cellphones (like the blackberry, iphone) which would include royalties.