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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - 200 plus AI on screen - Halo Reach

Hisiru said:
Tanstalas said:

It's nice to see that you are trying to make peace, but this video can clearly show that KZ2 has a bad AI even now. You won't see the enemies in a Halo game trying to give you a hug without shoot at your face. But yes, I shouldn't use that article, it was my mistake.

But nice initiative. I will show my respect to you saying that it's my last post in this thread.

Sorry, can't see embedded video at work, do you have a direct link to it? 

Here:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lc5qes2RKwk 

3:43 is when you will see a big flaw.

Run down the stairs, take your predefined position and start shooting. I see no flaw there. Its just nice scripting. ;)



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Mendicate Bias said:
deskpro2k3 said:
Mendicate Bias said:

No that was not your point. You posted a video of Killzone 2 and said that you doubt Halo Reach will have AI as good. No where did you say the word 200.

Once you realized you couldn't beat me in an argument you tried to change the topic. I never said the Halo Reach will have 200 smart AI on screen, go look at my first post if you want. You on the other hand came into a thread purporting to show a game with amazing AI and what you claimed clearly wasn't true. All you proved was that games that were released years before Killzone 2 have better AI.

I don't get sore over online arguments and as far as understanding goes I think its pretty clear who has a deeper understanding of the topic in this thread so no need for you to expect anything. Next time before jumping into the middle of a debate do some research or else you can expect to be challenged on your falsities.

Oh so you want to keep going?

My first post here was about heavenly sword. Basicly showing over 1000 enemy AI in a large open area. that was the point I was making. had nothing to do with anything here. Yet you fell for it and challenged it.

You cry and say they are "Zombies" So i showed you some smarter AI's than heavenly sword. Thats where killzone 2 came in. Yet you fail to see my point or maybe its just a case of mistranslation. Or you just like being sore over Halo?

I don't care about your first point, I never even commented on it. You can have 10,000 enemies on screen for all I care, if their all as dumb as those AI I saw in that Heavenly Sword video it won't make a difference and will devolve into a deluge of button mashing.

My problem is with you claiming that Halo Reach will be lucky to have AI as smart as Killzone 2 when its pretty obvious that Killzone 2 has mediocre AI that was surpassed by even the previous Halo's. You clearly didn't read the articles I linked for you or you wouldn't even be debating right now. Maybe those articles are too technical for you and you don't understand it, do you want me to post something simpler for you?

Also stop with the sore thing, your just making yourself sound like a child. No one gets sore over an internet debate unless theres something seriously wrong with them. 

You tried to use a video to prove that Killzone 2 had superior AI and when me and a couple other members picked the video apart and came to the conclusion that the AI is in fact not very good you became very defensive and started insulting people. I posted two articles with another to come once the server maintenance is done, supporting my point. Now show me why Killzone 2 has such "amazing AI? If you can't then just concede and leave the thread.

 

Honestly the video looks like it was played below normal (i could be wrong). I had to go back and try kz2 on default settings on that final assault stage and here are my observations: enemies would yell different things like "oh shit" and run to the next cover spot when I would throw a grenade. Anytime an enemy with a turret spotted me he was wanting to kill me at all costs, but also attacked any of my friend AI's that would try shooting at them, and they would also hide themselves behind the metal plates of the turret when under heavy fire. Everytime I was just doing the ol' come outta cover, fire and hide, reload, etc, I would be welcomed with a grenade, sometimes followed by a rush and being flanked as well. I didn't encounter anyone running away from me and not shooting, if anything I would get melee'ed (2 melee hits=death on default). On 1 mode further (Veteran), enemies are VERY aggressive, highly accurate and are comparable to real players (not the 12 yr old MW2 noobs) with a vast array of tactics. I have yet to beat the game on expert but I got demolished on the area before I have to man the tank.

In conclusion, from what I have seen of the AI in KZ2 vs Halo CE, Halo 3 and ODST (played very little of SP, did more MP), the AI has seemed to have an edge for ME on KZ2, as I was unable to run and gun as much as I did on the Halo series, both on default settings. Another observation is that while on cover, the KZ2 enemies are fairly unpredictable as to where they will pop out half the time, as they will either blind fire, switch position, or run to next cover spot.

Back on the main topic, Reach seems very promising from what I read on Game Informer. I am interested to see how day and night will affect overall combat, how AI will react to stealth vs run and gun, etc. I would also like to see if they do something to change up seemingly scripted events. Back when I played F.E.A.R (original) I was amazed by the AI that game had as well as the ability to make every play through different outside the scripted events. If on 1 playthrough an enemy would pop behind that wall, on the next one he wouldn't but instead he was behind a door down the hallway, etc. I see Bungie really enthusiastic about this game and when that happens, generally speaking, we get a beautiful product.



Make games, not war (that goes for ridiculous fanboys)

I may be the next Maelstorm or not, you be the judge http://videogamesgrow.blogspot.com/  hopefully I can be more of an asset than a fanboy to VGC hehe.

Oh, one more game came to my mind. Mount & Blade , potentially hundreds of invidual AI controlled npcs.

 

(I know that its lagging. Capturing high resolution video is a bit cpu intensive task. Oh and why they are spreading like that? If you look closely you can see how player commands his troops to take positions, charge etc. Yeah, you can do that too.)

 

I can say for certain that you won't see anything like that on current consoles. :D



demonfox13 what you are describing is typical FPS stuff, there is nothing special about it. The guy says his video is on Elite difficulty in the comments. And you basically admitted that you didn't play much Halo SP, so how would you know if it's any good? Try running and gunning on Legendary (SP not CO-OP) and see how far you get.

Halo has always been known for the AI, KZ2 for graphics. Play a few more shooters and you'll see what I mean.



CommonMan said:
Asmo said:

That's not really impressive, I don't know why you guys are drooling all over this.


Has this already been done/bested?

You got a ton of examples in this thread.

Plus, I don't really see how it makes the game better, you are generally focusing on a very small group of enemies at a time. Who cares what the other characters are doing, you won't have one saying "hey look at me! I'm gonna do something smart!"



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PearlJam said:
demonfox13 what you are describing is typical FPS stuff, there is nothing special about it. The guy says his video is on Elite difficulty in the comments. And you basically admitted that you didn't play much Halo SP, so how would you know if it's any good? Try running and gunning on Legendary (SP not CO-OP) and see how far you get.

Halo has always been known for the AI, KZ2 for graphics. Play a few more shooters and you'll see what I mean.


You failed to read my comment. I stated that Halo 2 was the ONLY halo I did not play fully SP, all the other ones I did. Please go back and read. As for that being elite I call bs as the AI on elite is extremely aggressive, especially during the assault on Visari's palace. As for run and gun on Legendary, yes that would be suicide for pretty much any FPS (exception is Haze.....god such a horrible AI). Halo is probably known for AI on the xbox community but overall definitely not, FEAR takes the cake on that one, KZ2's AI is easily comparable to Halo's.



Make games, not war (that goes for ridiculous fanboys)

I may be the next Maelstorm or not, you be the judge http://videogamesgrow.blogspot.com/  hopefully I can be more of an asset than a fanboy to VGC hehe.

Deneidez said:
Hisiru said:

It's nice to see that you are trying to make peace, but this video can clearly show that KZ2 has a bad AI even now. You won't see the enemies in a Halo game trying to give you a hug without shoot at your face. But yes, I shouldn't use that article, my mistake.

But nice initiative. I will show my respect to you saying that it's my last post in this thread.

Looks like they have predefined paths and scripts that make them go cover in same old places all the time. You can see that especially when player is on that staircase after small tunnel. Enemy troops run to predefined cover and they expose themselves to player. I would love to see what they would do if player would just hang around them, drag them into new areas where they haven't been yet or flank them.

actually no, if they cover it's destroyed,  they move around find another, and when they felt they  a advance they rush into you.



Hisiru said:
Feylic said:
Hisiru said:
Feylic said:
 

So.. how do you know what type of "AI" they are talking about? All the characters in that video use some sort of AI, they react to player actions, thats what AI is. So the AI that these guys are talking about could be the exact same.

We are talking about Halo, so of course they will use a good AI, just look at Halo 3 ODST. Also, you can simply watch the Vidoc, so you will have your answer.

It probably will be good, but that doesn't mean it's some magical AI that is vastly different from something used in Heavenly Sword, or any other game. AI works in pretty much the same way in every game.

It IS vastly different from something used in Heavenly Sword. In Heavenly Sword the enemies are just stupid characters trying to attack you and sometimes they will be standing in front of you without doing anything (even if they have the chance to attack you), so you can easily kill the enemies because they are simply zombies. In Halo the enemies are always moving and searching for some kind of wall, so they will be protected by the wall, in this case they are really trying to survive AND attack you at the same time. You can't even compare. And now, the AI is even more improved according to Bungie.

Ugh, no it is not. Those "stupid" charaters you see in Heavenly Sword, do the same things the characters do in Halo. The main difference is the melee to FPS type of fighting scheme. In most FPS's, you don't get stunned, or stopped, every time you get hit, so multiple enemies are allowed to attack you. In a game like Heavenly, you will get stunned/stopped when an enemy hits you, if all the 100's of enemies around you were allowed to all attack (which granted would be more realistic) the game would be impossible. This doesn't mean they are "stupid", they still follow a set up protocols based on what the player character is doing. The reason enemies in Halo search for walls, is because it is a shooting game, and walls can provide cover. Why would a character in Heavenly Sword search for a wall to hide behind, when they need to be at melee range to attack.



Feylic said:
Hisiru said:
Feylic said:
Hisiru said:
Feylic said:
 

So.. how do you know what type of "AI" they are talking about? All the characters in that video use some sort of AI, they react to player actions, thats what AI is. So the AI that these guys are talking about could be the exact same.

We are talking about Halo, so of course they will use a good AI, just look at Halo 3 ODST. Also, you can simply watch the Vidoc, so you will have your answer.

It probably will be good, but that doesn't mean it's some magical AI that is vastly different from something used in Heavenly Sword, or any other game. AI works in pretty much the same way in every game.

It IS vastly different from something used in Heavenly Sword. In Heavenly Sword the enemies are just stupid characters trying to attack you and sometimes they will be standing in front of you without doing anything (even if they have the chance to attack you), so you can easily kill the enemies because they are simply zombies. In Halo the enemies are always moving and searching for some kind of wall, so they will be protected by the wall, in this case they are really trying to survive AND attack you at the same time. You can't even compare. And now, the AI is even more improved according to Bungie.

Ugh, no it is not. Those "stupid" charaters you see in Heavenly Sword, do the same things the characters do in Halo. The main difference is the melee to FPS type of fighting scheme. In most FPS's, you don't get stunned, or stopped, every time you get hit, so multiple enemies are allowed to attack you. In a game like Heavenly, you will get stunned/stopped when an enemy hits you, if all the 100's of enemies around you were allowed to all attack (which granted would be more realistic) the game would be impossible. This doesn't mean they are "stupid", they still follow a set up protocols based on what the player character is doing. The reason enemies in Halo search for walls, is because it is a shooting game, and walls can provide cover. Why would a character in Heavenly Sword search for a wall to hide behind, when they need to be at melee range to attack.

No, the main difference is that the enemies in Halo are always trying to survive and move (something that you can do from any distance). There is no excuse to compare both AIs because they are different and they act different (the fact that the enemies in Heavenly Sword won't try to survive makes this comparison an absurd), this has nothing to do with the type of game.  And no, it wouldn't be impossible if they know how to make a balanced game. The problem is that Heavenly Sword is just a button smash game trying to be impressive using a high ammount of dumb enemies that will wait for your attack. 

 

@Deneidez

It' is a flaw, if the enemy is in front of you he should shoot and not ignore the fact that you are there and go to his position, it's an AI problem. Using a better AI the character will ignore the pre-programed actions and attack you because almost every FPS game has pre-programed actions and enemies that should go to a pre-determined position. For example, you can clearly see that the enemies has a pre-determined position in COD (and some of them has a path to follow) but they will attack you even if they aren't in their positions, they won't be limited by the pre-determined actions because they have a good AI. This is not an excuse, the AI is bad in KZ2.

 

@demonfox13

"KZ2's AI is easily comparable to Halo's."

Only in your mind.

 



OK this better end this once and for all. This is a list of the top ten most influential AI games and is from a website that is based completely around the discussion of Artificial Intelligence. Actual developers use this site as a discussion board for programming dynamic AI's in video games.

http://aigamedev.com/open/highlights/top-ai-games/

Here is another article on their site about Halo 3

http://aigamedev.com/open/reviews/halo-ai/

You can deny it all you want but Halo has been known throughout the gaming industry for its exceptional AI. So for some of you to doubt that Halo Reach will have AI as good as Killzone 2 when the previous Halo's still have more advanced AI in certain aspects is a joke.



                                           

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