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Forums - Sales Discussion - Filesharing/Downloading Not wrong, just illegal in some places

Rainbird on 21 February 2010
vaio said:
Rainbird said:

It concerns everything and everyone who ever dealt with piracy, but its focus is not on gaming. I think the move towards digital sales would have occured anyway, perhaps slightly slower if not for piracy, but not by much.

Double standards perhaps, but there is still a clear difference to me. One is sharing for the sake of sharing, while the other is sharing with someone who you have a personal relationship to, and thus serves to enhance or preserve said relationship.

I also know that the little sharing I do with my friends won't result in copies being made, as the only games I share these days are PS3 games.

Even it it is for PS3 you still may be contributing to a lost sale (I dont support this point of view, I am pro sharing)

I'm aware that there is a chance. But as you said, double standards.



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Random Canadian on 21 February 2010

About all the people saying -Screw potential sales blah blah if you dont buy it you shouldnt have/own play watch it whatever-
Bullshit! I have downloaded or pirated if you prefer, tons of PC/Xbox 1 games that after trying I found had 0 fucking % chance of being purchased by myself.

On the other hand I was at a EB games last week looking for MAG and the only copy they had left was pre-owned so I didnt get it because I think zipper deserves the money.

I also enjoy getting letters from the ESA and telling them to suck my nuts because I didnt break any canadian laws



vaio on 21 February 2010
Munkeh111 said:
Of course its wrong, it is very simple. It is not just a case of me lending to my few friends, it is a case of me giving to several thousand other people.

Let's say I buy Uncharted Drake's Fortune, then I lend it to a friend. I don't give him an extra copy, I give it to him for a short period of time, then he buys himself a copy because it is such a good game (that part is true).

Somebody has to pay for the artists to make money. The OP uses the idea that it allows new artists to be heard, but it doesn't allow them to get paid does it? Being heard might benefit the number of people who turn up to live events, but it won't directly put money in their pocket

Let's just look at the PSP, it would be a lot more successful, in terms of profitability, for Sony if people didn't download illegally. So what is happening there is Sony is making a loss because they don't get the royalties that they should, and so the people providing the services are suffering because they don't get the money from the people who are playing it. I don't care about the "they wouldn't actually buy it so they are no losing money," you can't seriously suggest that they are not losing any customers. Even though it may only be 1/5 people, they are still losing money.

I don't see why it is any different to stealing a CD from a shop other than the small price that it costs to actual make and transport those physical items

Another case of doule standards.

You are assuming that the same doesnt happend for downloaders which it does more then we actually know (that part is true as my whole gaming community and I have been doing this for 30 years with the Commodore 20&64, Nes, Snes, Atari and spectrum) and you also assume that every one that lends their games to friends get their friends to buy a copy wich is false. In both cases you will have people that wont buy the original in any case wether they borrow, download or rent it.

PSP:

The psp´s main problem is not piracy it a part of the problem but it´s very small part, the Nes, Snes, Gamecube, Wii, PS1, PS 2, xbox, box 360, DS etc did just fine and in the case of the Wii, DS and 360 the piracy is bigger on those platforms (and you would know this if you had access to torrentsites) and they still do fine more then fine, the psp´s problem is and identity one as it might as well be a regular console it has not the games to set it apart from regular consoles and it´s heavily advertised as a portable media device wich many users are buying it for wich makes the portable gaming device part even less relevant even though it is supposed to be one.



Vaio - "Bury me at Milanello"      R.I.P AC Milan

In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.
Now the world is weird  and people take Prozac  to make it normal.

If laughing is the best medicine and marijuana makes you laugh

Is marijuana the best medicine?

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

“If any creator has not played Mario, then they’re probably not a good creator. That’s something I can say with 100 percent confidence. Mario is, for game creators, the development bible.

Munkeh111 on 21 February 2010
vaio said:
Munkeh111 said:
Of course its wrong, it is very simple. It is not just a case of me lending to my few friends, it is a case of me giving to several thousand other people.

Let's say I buy Uncharted Drake's Fortune, then I lend it to a friend. I don't give him an extra copy, I give it to him for a short period of time, then he buys himself a copy because it is such a good game (that part is true).

Somebody has to pay for the artists to make money. The OP uses the idea that it allows new artists to be heard, but it doesn't allow them to get paid does it? Being heard might benefit the number of people who turn up to live events, but it won't directly put money in their pocket

Let's just look at the PSP, it would be a lot more successful, in terms of profitability, for Sony if people didn't download illegally. So what is happening there is Sony is making a loss because they don't get the royalties that they should, and so the people providing the services are suffering because they don't get the money from the people who are playing it. I don't care about the "they wouldn't actually buy it so they are no losing money," you can't seriously suggest that they are not losing any customers. Even though it may only be 1/5 people, they are still losing money.

I don't see why it is any different to stealing a CD from a shop other than the small price that it costs to actual make and transport those physical items

Another case of doule standards.

You are assuming that the same doesnt happend for downloaders which it does more then we actually know (that part is true as my whole gaming community and I have been doing this for 30 years with the Commodore 20&64, Nes, Snes, Atari and spectrum) and you also assume that every one that lends their games to friends get their friends to buy a copy wich is false. In both cases you will have people that wont buy the original in any case wether they borrow, download or rent it.

The whole thing about my friend buying another game was kind of a joke, but it is not double standards. The reason he bought the game was because I only gave him 3 days to play it, so he did not get to experience it properly. On the other hand, if he had downloaded he wouldn't have had to rush it. He didn't buy it to show his appriechiation to the developers, but because he wanted to enjoy it properly

PSP:

The psp´s main problem is not piracy it a part of the problem but it´s very small part, the Nes, Snes, Gamecube, Wii, PS1, PS 2, xbox, box 360, DS etc did just fine and in the case of the Wii, DS and 360 the piracy is bigger on those platforms (and you would know this if you had access to torrentsites) and they still do fine more then fine, the psp´s problem is and identity one as it might as well be a regular console it has not the games to set it apart from regular consoles and it´s heavily advertised as a portable media device wich many users are buying it for wich makes the portable gaming device part even less relevant even though it is supposed to be one.

The fact is, there are about 60m PSP owners out there, and a large reason why they are not buying the game is piracy. Admittedly, the fact that the games aren't as appealing might have some impact, as shown by the fact that the really big releases do sell quite well, but they would sell much better without piracy

But there is a very simple way to kill the idea that piracy is not bad. What if everyone stopped buying games and just pirated leaked copies? Then I am pretty sure the games industry would die, and I don't think anyone involved wants that



vaio on 21 February 2010
Munkeh111 said:
vaio said:
Munkeh111 said:
Of course its wrong, it is very simple. It is not just a case of me lending to my few friends, it is a case of me giving to several thousand other people.

Let's say I buy Uncharted Drake's Fortune, then I lend it to a friend. I don't give him an extra copy, I give it to him for a short period of time, then he buys himself a copy because it is such a good game (that part is true).

Somebody has to pay for the artists to make money. The OP uses the idea that it allows new artists to be heard, but it doesn't allow them to get paid does it? Being heard might benefit the number of people who turn up to live events, but it won't directly put money in their pocket

Let's just look at the PSP, it would be a lot more successful, in terms of profitability, for Sony if people didn't download illegally. So what is happening there is Sony is making a loss because they don't get the royalties that they should, and so the people providing the services are suffering because they don't get the money from the people who are playing it. I don't care about the "they wouldn't actually buy it so they are no losing money," you can't seriously suggest that they are not losing any customers. Even though it may only be 1/5 people, they are still losing money.

I don't see why it is any different to stealing a CD from a shop other than the small price that it costs to actual make and transport those physical items

Another case of doule standards.

You are assuming that the same doesnt happend for downloaders which it does more then we actually know (that part is true as my whole gaming community and I have been doing this for 30 years with the Commodore 20&64, Nes, Snes, Atari and spectrum) and you also assume that every one that lends their games to friends get their friends to buy a copy wich is false. In both cases you will have people that wont buy the original in any case wether they borrow, download or rent it.

The whole thing about my friend buying another game was kind of a joke, but it is not double standards. The reason he bought the game was because I only gave him 3 days to play it, so he did not get to experience it properly. On the other hand, if he had downloaded he wouldn't have had to rush it. He didn't buy it to show his appriechiation to the developers, but because he wanted to enjoy it properly

PSP:

The psp´s main problem is not piracy it a part of the problem but it´s very small part, the Nes, Snes, Gamecube, Wii, PS1, PS 2, xbox, box 360, DS etc did just fine and in the case of the Wii, DS and 360 the piracy is bigger on those platforms (and you would know this if you had access to torrentsites) and they still do fine more then fine, the psp´s problem is and identity one as it might as well be a regular console it has not the games to set it apart from regular consoles and it´s heavily advertised as a portable media device wich many users are buying it for wich makes the portable gaming device part even less relevant even though it is supposed to be one.

The fact is, there are about 60m PSP owners out there, and a large reason why they are not buying the game is piracy. Admittedly, the fact that the games aren't as appealing might have some impact, as shown by the fact that the really big releases do sell quite well, but they would sell much better without piracy

But there is a very simple way to kill the idea that piracy is not bad. What if everyone stopped buying games and just pirated leaked copies? Then I am pretty sure the games industry would die, and I don't think anyone involved wants that

As I said every one in my gaming community over here do download and have been sharing illegal copies for 30 years yet none of us is not buying games in fact most of us are heavy buyers of games and are the most loyal customers the kind that the gaming industry cheerish (we are the 30+ game buyers per console).

I admit that not all are the same as us but the same goes for people renting or lending games from friends, I also think that the biggest part of downloading/renting/lending people that doesnt support the industry are the new generation that grew up with comcputers and feel entiteled to anything they can get their hands of without supportin anyone.



Vaio - "Bury me at Milanello"      R.I.P AC Milan

In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.
Now the world is weird  and people take Prozac  to make it normal.

If laughing is the best medicine and marijuana makes you laugh

Is marijuana the best medicine?

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

“If any creator has not played Mario, then they’re probably not a good creator. That’s something I can say with 100 percent confidence. Mario is, for game creators, the development bible.

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Munkeh111 on 21 February 2010
vaio said:
Munkeh111 said:
vaio said:
Munkeh111 said:
Of course its wrong, it is very simple. It is not just a case of me lending to my few friends, it is a case of me giving to several thousand other people.

Let's say I buy Uncharted Drake's Fortune, then I lend it to a friend. I don't give him an extra copy, I give it to him for a short period of time, then he buys himself a copy because it is such a good game (that part is true).

Somebody has to pay for the artists to make money. The OP uses the idea that it allows new artists to be heard, but it doesn't allow them to get paid does it? Being heard might benefit the number of people who turn up to live events, but it won't directly put money in their pocket

Let's just look at the PSP, it would be a lot more successful, in terms of profitability, for Sony if people didn't download illegally. So what is happening there is Sony is making a loss because they don't get the royalties that they should, and so the people providing the services are suffering because they don't get the money from the people who are playing it. I don't care about the "they wouldn't actually buy it so they are no losing money," you can't seriously suggest that they are not losing any customers. Even though it may only be 1/5 people, they are still losing money.

I don't see why it is any different to stealing a CD from a shop other than the small price that it costs to actual make and transport those physical items

Another case of doule standards.

You are assuming that the same doesnt happend for downloaders which it does more then we actually know (that part is true as my whole gaming community and I have been doing this for 30 years with the Commodore 20&64, Nes, Snes, Atari and spectrum) and you also assume that every one that lends their games to friends get their friends to buy a copy wich is false. In both cases you will have people that wont buy the original in any case wether they borrow, download or rent it.

The whole thing about my friend buying another game was kind of a joke, but it is not double standards. The reason he bought the game was because I only gave him 3 days to play it, so he did not get to experience it properly. On the other hand, if he had downloaded he wouldn't have had to rush it. He didn't buy it to show his appriechiation to the developers, but because he wanted to enjoy it properly

PSP:

The psp´s main problem is not piracy it a part of the problem but it´s very small part, the Nes, Snes, Gamecube, Wii, PS1, PS 2, xbox, box 360, DS etc did just fine and in the case of the Wii, DS and 360 the piracy is bigger on those platforms (and you would know this if you had access to torrentsites) and they still do fine more then fine, the psp´s problem is and identity one as it might as well be a regular console it has not the games to set it apart from regular consoles and it´s heavily advertised as a portable media device wich many users are buying it for wich makes the portable gaming device part even less relevant even though it is supposed to be one.

The fact is, there are about 60m PSP owners out there, and a large reason why they are not buying the game is piracy. Admittedly, the fact that the games aren't as appealing might have some impact, as shown by the fact that the really big releases do sell quite well, but they would sell much better without piracy

But there is a very simple way to kill the idea that piracy is not bad. What if everyone stopped buying games and just pirated leaked copies? Then I am pretty sure the games industry would die, and I don't think anyone involved wants that

As I said every one in my gaming community over here do download and have been sharing illegal copies for 30 years yet none of us is not buying games in fact most of us are heavy buyers of games and are the most loyal customers the kind that the gaming industry cheerish (we are the 30+ game buyers per console).

But you would buy more games if you didn't use torrents wouldn't you?

I admit that not all are the same as us but the same goes for people renting or lending games from friends, I also think that the biggest part of downloading/renting/lending people that doesnt support the industry are the new generation that grew up with comcputers and feel entiteled to anything they can get their hands of without supportin anyone.

Yes, and ideas that it isn't wrong encourages a culture of just downloading whatever you want, and that is what is happening

 



vaio on 21 February 2010
Munkeh111 said:
vaio said:
Munkeh111 said:
vaio said:
Munkeh111 said:
Of course its wrong, it is very simple. It is not just a case of me lending to my few friends, it is a case of me giving to several thousand other people.

Let's say I buy Uncharted Drake's Fortune, then I lend it to a friend. I don't give him an extra copy, I give it to him for a short period of time, then he buys himself a copy because it is such a good game (that part is true).

Somebody has to pay for the artists to make money. The OP uses the idea that it allows new artists to be heard, but it doesn't allow them to get paid does it? Being heard might benefit the number of people who turn up to live events, but it won't directly put money in their pocket

Let's just look at the PSP, it would be a lot more successful, in terms of profitability, for Sony if people didn't download illegally. So what is happening there is Sony is making a loss because they don't get the royalties that they should, and so the people providing the services are suffering because they don't get the money from the people who are playing it. I don't care about the "they wouldn't actually buy it so they are no losing money," you can't seriously suggest that they are not losing any customers. Even though it may only be 1/5 people, they are still losing money.

I don't see why it is any different to stealing a CD from a shop other than the small price that it costs to actual make and transport those physical items

Another case of doule standards.

You are assuming that the same doesnt happend for downloaders which it does more then we actually know (that part is true as my whole gaming community and I have been doing this for 30 years with the Commodore 20&64, Nes, Snes, Atari and spectrum) and you also assume that every one that lends their games to friends get their friends to buy a copy wich is false. In both cases you will have people that wont buy the original in any case wether they borrow, download or rent it.

The whole thing about my friend buying another game was kind of a joke, but it is not double standards. The reason he bought the game was because I only gave him 3 days to play it, so he did not get to experience it properly. On the other hand, if he had downloaded he wouldn't have had to rush it. He didn't buy it to show his appriechiation to the developers, but because he wanted to enjoy it properly

PSP:

The psp´s main problem is not piracy it a part of the problem but it´s very small part, the Nes, Snes, Gamecube, Wii, PS1, PS 2, xbox, box 360, DS etc did just fine and in the case of the Wii, DS and 360 the piracy is bigger on those platforms (and you would know this if you had access to torrentsites) and they still do fine more then fine, the psp´s problem is and identity one as it might as well be a regular console it has not the games to set it apart from regular consoles and it´s heavily advertised as a portable media device wich many users are buying it for wich makes the portable gaming device part even less relevant even though it is supposed to be one.

The fact is, there are about 60m PSP owners out there, and a large reason why they are not buying the game is piracy. Admittedly, the fact that the games aren't as appealing might have some impact, as shown by the fact that the really big releases do sell quite well, but they would sell much better without piracy

But there is a very simple way to kill the idea that piracy is not bad. What if everyone stopped buying games and just pirated leaked copies? Then I am pretty sure the games industry would die, and I don't think anyone involved wants that

As I said every one in my gaming community over here do download and have been sharing illegal copies for 30 years yet none of us is not buying games in fact most of us are heavy buyers of games and are the most loyal customers the kind that the gaming industry cheerish (we are the 30+ game buyers per console).

But you would buy more games if you didn't use torrents wouldn't you?

I admit that not all are the same as us but the same goes for people renting or lending games from friends, I also think that the biggest part of downloading/renting/lending people that doesnt support the industry are the new generation that grew up with comcputers and feel entiteled to anything they can get their hands of without supportin anyone.

Yes, and ideas that it isn't wrong encourages a culture of just downloading whatever you want, and that is what is happening

 

Yes I would buy more games but that would be the games I had to return because I didnt like them or they gave no value and I would loose a ton of money selling them back wich in turn would cause me to not afford the games I can afford to buy now because I know allready know before I buy them if I will keep them or not. So downloadin is the best consumer tool you could have if it is used properly as you save money on not buying crap you would have to sell back and spend the same money on games you know you will keep and thus afford more games that you want and keep.

Yes that is what is happening to some extent but I am very confident that those same users will someday start supporting the industry, not all people are greedy bastards and most of us grow up from the phase i fell entitled.

Also if there werent downloading/renting/lending alot of consumers that would never buy or try the same games would never know if they liked the franchise and thus never become fans of the same franchises.

I think the later point is more important to try and preserve for the industry then trying to alienate the long time gaming fans like us that support the industry tons more then the average gamer.

There are upsides and downsides to both scenarios and I think the upside outwieghs the dowside also the people that wont buy games no mutter what will still lend or rent their games and still not support the industry even if there wasnt ay downloading so chasing them is beyond futile.

 

Edit: I am off to play some games so i might not respond in a while but I while when i get back.



Vaio - "Bury me at Milanello"      R.I.P AC Milan

In the 60's, people took acid to make the world weird.
Now the world is weird  and people take Prozac  to make it normal.

If laughing is the best medicine and marijuana makes you laugh

Is marijuana the best medicine?

"Be who you are and say what you feel, because those who mind don't matter and those who matter don't mind."

“If any creator has not played Mario, then they’re probably not a good creator. That’s something I can say with 100 percent confidence. Mario is, for game creators, the development bible.

Alterego-X on 21 February 2010
Munkeh111 said:

But there is a very simple way to kill the idea that piracy is not bad. What if everyone stopped buying games and just pirated leaked copies? Then I am pretty sure the games industry would die, and I don't think anyone involved wants that

This is just a Straw Man argument,  you could do the same with anything else. 

Bicycles are bad because if everyone would exclusively travel by one, most people wouldn't ever arrive anywhere, plus they couldn't go across the ocean with one. 

Homosexuality is bad because if everyone would be gay humans would die out. 

Gaming is bad because if everyone would stop doing every other hobby to play games, people would have no real life. 



leo-j on 21 February 2010

Oh please, stop trying to make up excuses, PIRACY is bad period. If everyone pirated, there would be no gaming.



 

mM
Random Canadian on 21 February 2010
Alterego-X said:
Munkeh111 said:

But there is a very simple way to kill the idea that piracy is not bad. What if everyone stopped buying games and just pirated leaked copies? Then I am pretty sure the games industry would die, and I don't think anyone involved wants that

This is just a Straw Man argument,  you could do the same with anything else.

Bicycles are bad because if everyone would exclusively travel by one, most people wouldn't ever arrive anywhere, plus they couldn't go across the ocean with one.

Homosexuality is bad because if everyone would be gay humans would die out.

Gaming is bad because if everyone would stop doing every other hobby to play games, people would have no real life.

This!

 

And might I add

Gaming is bad, If everyone just played video games all the time society would fall apart.