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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - The Industry being stubborn

Mr Khan on 18 February 2010

Those who are unwilling to adapt will perish in the upmarket. It may take a while, but all that red ink has to kill them eventually. Those who diversify and embrace the full-market spectrum will survive

 

The industry is currently saying "make AAA PS360 games! That's the land of milk and honey!" Despite the fact that they've already seen what happens when everyone tries to make AAA PS360 games. That was holiday season 2008, and that didn't end up good for pretty much anyone. But that's still where the industry is trying to send its troops, despite past casualties.

 

Now i'm not saying "don't make AAA PS360 games at all," because you can score big with high-quality stuff, but not if you drown yourself out in a sea of them, which is what they seem to want to do, and avoid Wii/DS like the plague all the while (this mentality is pretty much universal in Western publishers, though some Easterners have a good, diverse base thus).

 

A lot of this mid-tier stuff should have been Wii games in the first place. Dark Void could have done better if they had re-cast it as more of a jet-pack space shooter, made it more arcadey, and put it on Wii, but instead it's a rather large red mark on Capcom's financials.



Monster Hunter: pissing me off since 2010.

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theprof00 on 18 February 2010
theprof00 said:
The problem with the wii games is that they generally cannot hold as much data/ cannot run the same level of graphics and gameplay depth that the others can. (When I say gameplay depth, I mean, simultaneous gameplay, like an RTS computing thousands of different things in real time, not how good the gameplay is)
Therefore, when making a wii game, the gameplay has to be that much better, and use less tools with which to run it. Fewer environments, smaller levels, lighter graphics+details. The dev has to be much more clever to make it seem like the player is getting the same thing. For instance in SMG, the planets are all relatively small and everything is on a timer or patterned. This means that the system only has to render a small part of the environment at any one time, and even cleverly hide a loading period when shooting to other planets.
It's the same with all the wii games, and DS games for that matter. It's hides in "style" or "scope" or "rails".

Additionally, most of the core audience enjoys games with lots of replayability and addictiveness. Minigames and challenges to improve scores are littered among the wii titles.

Now, taking into account the increased cleverness needed, and increased gameplay replayability, you're looking at a couple things. (Note that "-" signs do not mean bad, they mean standard)
+replayability +cleverness (pretty much only nintendo)
+replayability -cleverness Minigames
-replayability +cleverness ex: Madworld, the Conduit
-replayabliity - cleverness (this one entails a normal core ps360/PC game)* impossible due to system constraints.

Note about the above: I'm not saying anything above is fact. I'm trying to describe how different it is for successful games on the wii. In order to make comparable games, you need to tone down the scope and inject addictive qualities. The simplest addictive quality is score, the second, is collecting. However, the kind of games that are popular on pc/ps360, don't involve score for the most part, and the ones that use collecting, use it in such a fashion that it would not be possible on the wii. There are just too many varied things to collect/unlock. Additionally, when you want to improve on one of these things, something else has to take a hit. And that's where the cleverness comes in, and why cleverness is the most crucial aspect of this whole thing.

It costs a lot of money to make a clever game. And that is why you don't see many of them.

quoted for people who didn't read it the first time.



woopah on 18 February 2010

@ elmerion

habe you played little king story? that seems to be the kind of game you would enjoy



 nintendo fanboy, but the good kind

proud soldier of nintopia

 

theprof00 on 18 February 2010
RolStoppable said:
theprof00 said:
theprof00 said:
The problem with the wii games is that they generally cannot hold as much data/ cannot run the same level of graphics and gameplay depth that the others can. (When I say gameplay depth, I mean, simultaneous gameplay, like an RTS computing thousands of different things in real time, not how good the gameplay is)
Therefore, when making a wii game, the gameplay has to be that much better, and use less tools with which to run it. Fewer environments, smaller levels, lighter graphics+details. The dev has to be much more clever to make it seem like the player is getting the same thing. For instance in SMG, the planets are all relatively small and everything is on a timer or patterned. This means that the system only has to render a small part of the environment at any one time, and even cleverly hide a loading period when shooting to other planets.
It's the same with all the wii games, and DS games for that matter. It's hides in "style" or "scope" or "rails".

Additionally, most of the core audience enjoys games with lots of replayability and addictiveness. Minigames and challenges to improve scores are littered among the wii titles.

Now, taking into account the increased cleverness needed, and increased gameplay replayability, you're looking at a couple things. (Note that "-" signs do not mean bad, they mean standard)
+replayability +cleverness (pretty much only nintendo)
+replayability -cleverness Minigames
-replayability +cleverness ex: Madworld, the Conduit
-replayabliity - cleverness (this one entails a normal core ps360/PC game)* impossible due to system constraints.

Note about the above: I'm not saying anything above is fact. I'm trying to describe how different it is for successful games on the wii. In order to make comparable games, you need to tone down the scope and inject addictive qualities. The simplest addictive quality is score, the second, is collecting. However, the kind of games that are popular on pc/ps360, don't involve score for the most part, and the ones that use collecting, use it in such a fashion that it would not be possible on the wii. There are just too many varied things to collect/unlock. Additionally, when you want to improve on one of these things, something else has to take a hit. And that's where the cleverness comes in, and why cleverness is the most crucial aspect of this whole thing.

It costs a lot of money to make a clever game. And that is why you don't see many of them.

quoted for people who didn't read it the first time.

All I got out of your post is that third parties lack the competence to make a good game.

Btw, your conclusion is contradicting the rest of your post. You highlight Super Mario Galaxy as a clever game and say that such a game costs a lot of money, but we know that it was cheaper to make than the majority of HD titles. Therefore costs can't be the reason why there aren't more clever games on the Wii. It must be that third parties suck at making games and being aware of it, that's why they don't bother to try. That at least is a logical explanation.

I thought that was what I was talking about, except that it's not that they suck. Their problem is that they don't understand like Nintendo does. And yes, they aren't clever enough to make the wii seem HD like Nintendo is capable of doing. On top of that, they've grown accustomed to an older style of gameplay, and while they have great ideas, a lot of them have to get thrown in the trash because of limitations. As far as the last option on that list, -replayability -cleverness, consider that Resident Evil 4, from last era. Devs are completely capable of delivering ps2 quality gaming on the wii, but so far, only okami and re4 have really made the transition...there should be others.

Also, devs have a lot of great ideas, but they just can't be realistically made. For example Heavy Rain or Valkyria Chronicles or Little Big Planet...however, the scope of such games just cannot be performed to the level that the ideas require. That is not to say that Wii does not have innovative games. When looking from a developers point of view, if you have a really innovative idea, put it on systems where the audience is predictable and reliable. But I agree, there is a very large market on the wii of core and hardcore gamers who love innovative gaming, and devs need to learn how to work it to their advantage. The main problem I see, is that devs are not being clever enough to pack in great visuals AND gameplay. Like the conduit, they try to go big and leave in jaggies and a small scope. They need to take a lesson from SMG and break it down to an imperceptible level. Like in RE games, make the door a loading screen.

And it doesn't seem like it should be so hard when Nintendo has set such a great example. Third parties just don't seem to be getting it. Instead of a loading screen door, they put the game on rails. They cut out large portions of the gameplay in order to make it look shiny.



Pyro as Bill on 18 February 2010

Leave 3rd parties alone.

They're busy porting games to the iPhone, they don't have time to work with underpowered tech like the Wii.



Nov 2016 - NES outsells PS1 (JP)

Don't Play Stationary 4 ever. Switch!

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Davey1983 on 18 February 2010
Xxain said:
im shocked ppl actually care about THQ...did i miss the super huge title THQ released this gen..or im only thinking in the PS1 days.. where i last remember them being relevant?

THQ is just the most recent company to say something stupid.  They claim there is no demand for 'Core' games on the Wii and the CEO uses Deadly Creatures as an example.  Sorry, Deadly Creatures would not have sold well on any console-- it was an interesting idea, but does not have mass market appeal.

 

Here is my take-- I don't care much if companies don't want to make games for the Wii, it is their money they are throwing away by not doing so.  What really irks me is when companies claim to have given 'Core' games to the Wii and then blame the customer for not getting it.  I am forced to ask-- where are these great 'core' games like GTA, FF13, Assasins Creed, RE5? 

 

Companies need to stop giving the Wii spinoffs, crappy games, or 'test' games (this irks me the most-- they want me to buy a crappy game because they might release a good game latter) and then claim that 'core' games won't sell on the Wii.   Save for Monster Hunter 3 (which hasn't been released in the West yet, but sold about 1 million in Japan), there is not one so-called 'core' game that has released on the Wii from a third party that would have sold well on a HD console.  Not one.



elmerion on 18 February 2010

From certain point of view THQ is right, there is no market for insect beat em up on the wii after all, but as i said before, developers are suppose to explore the market, if they just asket theirselves ,"who will play this game", then this kind of idiotic acts wouldnt happen



Nintendo is the best videogames company ever!

Carl on 18 February 2010
Cobretti2 said:
Carl2291 said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
But those are being base on other opinions of the game. Guess what, that's how I'm basing FFXIII is not that good of a game in terms of being a game. From what's indicated in all accounts, even from those that like it, the flow of the game turns out it's all about being flashy, with just some gameplay as padding between the cutscenes. And even though there are battles, it's more about being flashy as well, hence the faster battle flow.

You can think that, if you want. Your opinion and all. Even if you haven't played it.

I only brought Mario into it to shut milkyjoe up. He is basing his points from reviews, i can do the exact same thing for Ninty + Mario.

but you do realise a lot of game critics are 3d whores? some reviews knocked it for being a 2d game. Same thing happened with GTA on DS. Reviewers didn't like it cause it was 2D top view. Everyone said that oh GTA sold like shit cause the audience was not there. Guess what it did worst on PSP? where 3D gta games sold millions.

In final fantasy case lots of japanese didn't like it cause of the new direction of no towns and how it flowed

but like who really cares about mario or ff here.

The point here is 3rd party developers treat the Wii like shit. Then complain when games dont sell. how can they expect crap to sell? Even Nintendo has made crap like day of crisis or whatever it was called. That shitty game never sold. So devs can't say Nintendo only games sell, when the fact is only decent quality games sell.

They have no marketing.

They are sloppy made.

or They make some on rails crap no one wants.

Like RE4 a (4year old game) sold MUCH better than the other RE games because it wasn't on rails and it ACTUALLY WORKED GREAT with the Wii Remote. It does not take a genious to work out that another RE game in RE4 style would sell.

Firstly, GTA Chinatown Wars is the DS's top rated game on Metacritic. And also the highest rated GTA on PSP. Yes, it had underwhelming sales compared to other GTA games. And on the PSP it was a late port.

Secondly, it's not only decent, quality games that sell. I can give you at least 10 examples of shovelware that have broke 1 Million on Wii.

Again, Res Evil 5 would be a nobrainer. But Capcom seem to dislike the thought of porting it, for some strange reason.



                            

mike_intellivision on 18 February 2010

Reading all of the posts here -- and all of the "news" on the Internet (including comments by "industry insiders"), you would think the Wii sold like the PS2 over the holiday season rather than cracking all sales records known to mankind.

A lot of people in the industry do not like the Wii. They don't understand it. It does not play under the same rules as the previous consoles. What makes this even worse is that they thought they understood it (knowing it was something different) and that did not work either.

Basically, Wii owners like rich and varied experiences. Why else would Just Dance become a hit.

But they do not see the need -- like other game players -- to have the same experience multiple times. Look at sports titles for example. Tiger Woods 2010 is hailed at the best golf game ever, but it has not sold its predecessors. One reason may be that many who wanted to play PGA golf saw no need to upgrade. (Another may be Tiger's own behavior as the sales of all three versions are down). In other words, sequels don't do as well as one would think (SMG2 may really be a litmus test for this).

This can also be extended to genres. No matter how well it is done, the demand for ANOTHER rail shooter on the Wii is just not there (in other words, no one was clamoring for Dead Space Extraction after 2 HotD and 2 RE games). This also explains why mini-game collections have gone from must have to meh.

But while Wii owners like different, they do not like too different. In other words, games too off-the-wall (Deadly Creatures) or too violent (Madworld) are just not going to sell well on the Wii.

Wii owners also resent being treated as second class citizens. Stripped down or long-delayed games are generally not going to fly.

So what must third parties do. They must make games that are fun, that work to the strength of the Wii (mixed button pushing and some motion), and that use the graphics capacity of the system (the GC had good looking games). With the balance board you could make an interactive FPS for example. Or you could make a high-end adventure experience based upon many of the existing AAA series found on other platforms.

The key to doing this is to make an effort and do it right. Wii owners don't necessarily hang out in Wii chat rooms. But they do learn what is not good. And they don't buy it. Not even Nintendo's name could rescue DK Barrel Blast for example.

Mike from Morgantown



      


I am Mario.


I like to jump around, and would lead a fairly serene and aimless existence if it weren't for my friends always getting into trouble. I love to help out, even when it puts me at risk. I seem to make friends with people who just can't stay out of trouble.

Wii Friend Code: 1624 6601 1126 1492

NNID: Mike_INTV
Carl on 18 February 2010
routsounmanman said:
Carl2291 said:
LordTheNightKnight said:
But those are being base on other opinions of the game. Guess what, that's how I'm basing FFXIII is not that good of a game in terms of being a game. From what's indicated in all accounts, even from those that like it, the flow of the game turns out it's all about being flashy, with just some gameplay as padding between the cutscenes. And even though there are battles, it's more about being flashy as well, hence the faster battle flow.

You can think that, if you want. Your opinion and all. Even if you haven't played it.

I only brought Mario into it to shut milkyjoe up. He is basing his points from reviews, i can do the exact same thing for Ninty + Mario.

I thought NSMBWii was hammered for being "too much of the same", Nintendo being lazy and such. Which means, the series stays true to what it has been. Can't say that for FF though; you should make up YOUR minds.

The point was to shut him up saying the quality has dropped because of score.

But thanks anyway for backing up my point of Nintendo not bringing anything new.