Conina said:
If masks don't help slowing down spreading the virus immensely... why does the USA (lax regulations, low mask acceptance thanks to mixed messages of the government and anti-mask propaganda of fox news) currently has almost 2 million known active cases (~5800 per million) while other big western countries with even higher population density have it much better under control? I'd say Germany has a similar wealth and lifestyle (in most areas) as the USA and only ~6000 known active cases (~68 per million, so 1/85 compared to the USA). Italy was hit pretty hard by the virus, but they took it serious and are down to ~12000 known active cases (~200 per million, so 1/29 compared to the USA). France is still in trouble with ~65000 known active cases (~1000 per million)... but the USA numbers are 6x worse than that (~5800 per million). And the 4th of July infections will probably make it even worse in the USA |
If two people have the same job and same hourly wage, but one works many more hours than the other, won't they likely end up with more money?
If multiple countries are dealing with the same illness, but one country does way more testing, won't they likely end up with more confirmed cases?
| Hiku said: Your first sentence to me was ironically "I'll save you the time". Yet here we are 10 pages and 5-6 replies later, and you still haven't answered my question. Because power plants are essential and thus always operational during a pandemic, under which scenario would the hospitals end up without power? And how does it relate to your argument? You posted that as direct response to Pemalite talking about wearing masks and going into lockdown. If you do not properly explain, or you make something up that makes absolutely no sense pertaining to your argument against masks/lockdown, then we will consider this a problematic pattern from you (lying to make a point). This time it looked like you didn't understand the concept of certain jobs always staying operational during a lockdown. |
Ironically, after pointing out you're not paying enough attention to the posts and overall conversation, if you would have done so as per that post, you would see it clearly ties to someone else who was added to the post, along with you and the third who had also joined in. Someone mentioning they would explain it to me because they had "time to kill". It applied to all three in general, but not every single last thing in my reply was direct to each individual.
It relates to it based on who has the "moral high ground" based on their job. Or at least that's what it seemed to be before I reiterated what I did, and then that didn't seem as important all of the sudden. It's all there if you go back and read through it.
Are you seriously suggesting that you honestly think it's impossible for a hospital to be without power? I already explained enough. To do so in great depth wouldn't matter anyway because you wouldn't know for certain if it were the truth unless you do what I do, in which case why ask, and you definitely can't look it up on the internet to 'fact check' it either. If you don't want to believe me, that's your choice, but if that's the example you want to set as to how we should treat each other, then you as well as I need to apply the same logic to Pem, which means there is no reason for either of us to believe them either, which then also means what they've said is a problem as well. I however have been willing to take their word for it.
11 minute video... 11? Of course, why not. Trucker Carlson? Coincidence that get's brought up now with what happened recently to him? I wonder if this is being seen as somehow directly associated? If we can't get you to wear a mask by asking 'nicely'..
I would hope the problems are dealt with fairly and equally, as last time there was a 'problem' it certainly didn't seem to be handled that way.
| Hiku said: It's better to not wear it for 30 seconds than not wear it for 10 hours. There will be people who are taking precautions for nothing, and there will be people failing to take precautions. But if everyone is made to wear one, the latter will be a significantly smaller portion than otherwise. |
If those 30 seconds are all it takes for you to contract it and then die, then what was the point in wearing the mask at all? Is the hot dog contest happening in a certified medical clean room? Is it a guarantee you would have contracted it and died sooner if you hadn't bothered to wear it prior?
Every last life matters equally has been part of the conversation from early on, and isn't exactly unjustified, though tough to undeniably prove with real world evidence unfortunately.
That's like saying, 'we should take away everyone's guns. Some people's families won't be able to defend themselves and will be injured or killed, and some will have police nearby to save the day, but it will be better for everyone in the end'. It won't be better, if all lives matter equally. If you don't believe all lives matter equally, then it's completely justified for someone else to believe the same, and if they don't want to wear a mask because they've deemed themselves more worthy than others, you couldn't justifiably complain about that then.
| Hiku said: Because it's an everyday occurrence for ambulances, fire trucks and police cars. If an electrician had seconds to get somewhere in a life and death situation, I'm sure it's pretty rare. I've at least never heard of it. That's why hospitals and similarly important structures tend to have backup generators, so the electricians have ample time to fix things. |
Not entirely true. I had a gf that was a paramedic who said there were rare shifts where they didn't use the lights or siren because those were only for a certain level of emergency which didn't occur for them those days. Though yes, it happens much more often for them.
It is more rare in the electrical field, but when something like a hospital does lose power, like if it were to happen during the covid 19 peak, how many lives are all at risk, including the medial professionals themselves? That's a lot of lives and a lot of pressure to be under while you're racing through traffic. That's if the professionals on the way have morals and care. I was once told by another competing company on a job site site that they lost a pair of workers racing to an urgent call because another vehicle side swiped them on the highway, changing lanes without properly looking, causing them to crash and die. Apparently they were one of a few vehicles on the way and the issue was solved in time so no lives were lost, other than their two workers in the vehicle accident.
The point is what is necessary and what isn't? When is enough truly enough, and when is it too much? Why are all essential workers clearly not equally essential? How do you legitimately asses the value of each? Are all things said to be equal, actually treated as equal in day to day life? Can they ever be?
| Hiku said: I'm not interested in discussing this subject. You can talk to Pema about this. But I'll respond to this one at least. Yes, I have tremendous respect for people working in health care or other fields where they are heavily exposed to the risks of Covid, if they do so with the knowledge of that risk. But if someone chooses not to work in some of those areas, it's hard to answer without knowing their personal situation. When it comes to people refusing to wear masks, I've been open to hearing a good excuse to not wear one. But so far I haven't heard one. |
The reason isn't all that much different than allowing people to have guns. The freedom to choose based on your life and to possibly take or save others. That weapon could be a positive or negative thing. Depends on who you ask. Some are all for it, other's are completely against it. Who's right and who's wrong? If the police took away someone's gun because no more guns for the general public was the newest decision from 'on high', and they and their family were robbed at gunpoint and killed that same night, would that be ok? What if the intruder was just some really drunk idiot who made an honest mistake, but get's blown away by the home owner, simply out of irrational fear for their families lives? Is either case for the good of everyone?
The problem and answer, is choice, and it'll never be undeniably right or wrong.
| Hiku said: In this case you listen to the ones conveying scientific consensus. You ignore the ones that don't. |
If everyone was that intelligent, there wouldn't be a need for the leaders and some of the systems we have. The hard data could simply be made available to the public and they would all know exactly what to do. It's been said, even in this very conversation overall, that some people are extremely dumb/stupid. Apparently some of the 'best candidates' from their respective professions aren't even reliable. If they can't be trusted, who can be, and how are people to know for certain?
| Hiku said: You.... you do realize that hospital workers have it far easier during a lockdown than an open pandemic...? When there's no lockdown, they get more patients that die. |
Rise, peak, or fall, what's the difference? It's all because of decisions made 'for the good of everyone', or I guess you could also say, not made.
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Hiku said: Now you linked me a nonsense Fox News segment where they lie for several minutes straight. While I do appreciate the timestamp this time, let me explain why it's nonsense, and how they trick people like you. The first report she mentioned is about cloth masks. Not N95 masks. No one is recommending cloth masks over surgical masks. That's why everyone should wear a mask. Because that's when they become extremely effective. Then she moves on to a very outdated story from January 31 where the CDC did not recommend wearing masks against Covid 19. That's when there was like 1 person in USA known to have it. 4 minutes in, and she's been lying over and over, to make it sound like she presented several argument against wearing N95 masks, when she didn't even present a single one. This is unfortunately a very common and effective strategy. |
That would be your personal choice. Would you like to always be told what to do? What if it was consistent and always said to be 'for the good of everyone'?
How many people are wearing high end medical masks? How many have access or can afford them?
Should everyone be ID chipped, with cams/scanners everywhere, and constant checkpoints when moving about through an area? Can bad people, like criminals, look like good people? If a police officer interrupts someone to question them because they look ever so slightly suspicious, is that a problem if that person is actually no threat? That individual could be a terrorist for all we know, so it would be best for everyone to be sure, wouldn't it? Imagine the death and chaos that could ensue otherwise if unchecked. Imagine a system where you're constantly monitored, told what to do, and harassed because, reasons. Those systems have existed and still exist in some places, under the guise of unrivaled safety, and are slowly being introduced where freedom once reigned.
When the leaders and media, the protectors of the people, don't even follow their own rules, why do you think the people won't fall in line?
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