Do we really need to kill animals??

[Mnementh]

zero129 said:

Mnementh said:

zero129 said:
So i guess i win then and you accept that i was right max and that animals can think and are conscious just like us?
been awhile now and nothing from you. bit hard to disagree with science i guess...

Science? Some scientist articulated their personal opinion. But in science there is stated an theory in a more concrete manner. Like n a scientific paper, like the one I quoted. About chimpanzees be like humans - killing each other with weapons. On which you didn't commented. So I guess I win. It is a bit hard to disagree with science i guess... *lol*

Consciess of animals is a scientifically disputed thing - but please notice I don't kill and eat animals, that are suspected to have consciousness: apes/monkeys, doplins/whales, elephants, maybe even octopus. So, if your arguments are based on consciousness, you should restrict it to the animals that have one. Or do you think sponges have consciousness? Or Xenoturbella? Or Platyzoa? Or corals? Funny thing is, if people talk about animals they mostly think only about chordata. Maybe including insects. Animals are  much more than that.

Another thing you should notice is, that you always compare animals with humans, but you never apply the same rules to animals as to humans. A shark may kill you, and soen't care if you are a vegan or not. The golden rule that is a thinking base to our ethics and also in core of our laws goes both ways: I accept them for other humans, but I also expect other humans to treat me according to the golden rule. I cannot expect the same from animals, they never consented to treat humans this way. So there IS a main difference.

Yes Science. If guys like Stephen Hawkins etc have done studys and believe it to be true then why shouldnt you or i?. Btw if you read any of the links in my post as i see you carefully cut them out you would see studies was done and they wasnt by no no name scientist and its not from their opinions but from their studys. Anyway clear you dont want to face the truth.

Ok you dont kill and eat animals that are suspected to have a consciousness but others do it for you. I bet if Chimp and Whale was such easy meats to come buy you would have no problem eating them too and telling the rest of us how Chimps and whales etc have no consciousness.

If Apes, Whales, etc might have a consciousness who is to say other animals doesnt? and im not talking about Sponges Or Xenoturbella Or Platyzoa Or coral and you clearly know this imo. But i guess you can say any old shit to try disregard what im saying. Im Talking about Animals you can clearly look into their "Eyes" and Clearly watch how they act etc etc and see that they must have some type of consciousness. If we could look into a Sponges eyes and listen to it make sounds etc etc id maybe feel the same way about them too.

Will a sharke go and start stocking up on humans and breading them to turture and then kill and eat? no? ok nothing like what we humans are doing to animals today then.

Which studies? You never linked one. Don't forget, scientists are also humans and are entitled to a personal opinion, but that does not necessarily makes an scientific theory.

Second: Which animals? The animals suspected (no evidence) to have consciousness are usually not eaten. Yes, not even by others, they are usually not eaten.

If you don't include Spnges and Platyzoa and so on, then be specific. Which animals do you include? Chordata? Or only Vertebrate? Think, that Chordata include this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urochordata . That has more in common with us than a mollusc (like the octopus, that is also suspected by some with consciousness).

You are talk about animals that you can look in the eyes? The star-nosed mull (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star-nosed_mole) has no eyes, but it is a mammal like us. Don't you think 'looking into the eyes' is a bit unspecific.

And the last bit about the shark: is it then OK for us, if we hunt the animals we eat? Eating meat from hunted animals is right in your opinion? And what about animals that breed other animals as lifestock, like ants do?

I think you are really unspecific about this. And you throw the possibility out of the window, that sponges or plants have a consciousness, but we cannot really experimentally show a consciousness, so they may have one too. You're OK with eating plants, although we know the same about consciousness in them, as in many animals. You rule them out, because you cannot look into their eyes?

And my main point stands undisputed by you: I can accept the golden rule for humans, because other humans accept the golden rule too and include me in it. We cannot make a contract with sharks, that they accept the golden rule for humans. That's a main and important difference between us and animals.