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sethnintendo said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

Actually for a huge country like US, Brazil, Russia etc the electoral college makes a lot of sense. Its a long discussion, but US is mainly populated in the coasts, which is overwhelmingly blue. But since you akso need the votes for less populated states your politics neess to also address these people. The day electoral college passes in US you can be sure those states in the middle of the country will be totally forgotten and thebrepublican party will never be elected again.

Its a long discussion, but keep in mind it only makes sese because it is a huge country and with a huge unbalance of population per state.

I'm fine with the electoral college if they actually divided up the states electoral votes by the percentage each candidate gets in that state.  Only a couple states actually do this.  The winner takes all aspect of someone getting 51% of the vote yet getting all the votes for the state needs to stop.  I'd like to see you argue for winner takes all.

If the system was like you are describing then there would be no difference in the result compared to popular vote.

Again, my case in favor of electoral college is ONLY in the case of very large countries where you have a huge difference between the regions, like US for example where the coasts are almost like different countries compared to the middle of the country where the population is much smaller and where you have rural regions with different cultures, so you can't only disregard these people because you only need to votes from the coasts.

But anyway no system is perfect and I think any system will have it's flaws.



sundin13 said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

Actually for a huge country like US, Brazil, Russia etc the electoral college makes a lot of sense. Its a long discussion, but US is mainly populated in the coasts, which is overwhelmingly blue. But since you akso need the votes for less populated states your politics neess to also address these people. The day electoral college passes in US you can be sure those states in the middle of the country will be totally forgotten and thebrepublican party will never be elected again.

Its a long discussion, but keep in mind it only makes sese because it is a huge country and with a huge unbalance of population per state.

But isn't that, like, the entire point of the Senate? The role of the Senate is to ensure that every state is represented by the federal government. It simply doesn't make sense to weigh votes for president in non-equal ways to fill this purpose when this purpose is already filled.

That said, I also don't agree with your premise. It would be far more difficult for a president to win the popular vote if they disregarded the entire middle of the country. Even for Clinton, millions of votes came from these states. On the contrary, as we are now, the interests of a select few swing states are the only ones that actually matter in a presidential general election. Why should a Republican presidential candidate try to appeal to voters in Cali? Why should a Dem candidate try to appeal to voters in Kentucky? Hell, why should anyone do anything for a state whose result is already essentially ensured? The specific interests of these states already aren't being adequately met by our current candidates as a result of the electoral college system. Switching to a popular vote system could make it more important for a president to establish a broad coalition instead of a highly specific one...

I think you have a good point here about the senate and this is true as long as the senate results follow the electoral college for the specific state. I truly do not know how common it would be for a state to have voted red but have a blue representative in the senate.

As for your last argument, I still think that since most of the population is present in the coats, you just need to cater for their needs and forget the people in the middle. But yes you are right that the swing states end up being more important in the fight.



sethnintendo said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

I still think it is a good system when you have a very large country with huge differencies in population density, but only in this specific case. What I do not know if how they calculate the number of delegates per state. Need to look into it. Also I albsolutely hate when politicians want to change rules because they are losing and unfortunately its always the left or fascist leaders doing it.

One bad thing that NOBODY talks about though is how bullshit the popular vote result is. Since in a lot of states your vote may nome matter (being red in california and ny, being bkue in texas) a lot of people just dont go voting and prefer to stay home. So saying that you won college vote but lost popular vote may not be true if 100% of people knew theur vote would matter

Your last paragraph is a good reason why not to have winner takes all in the electoral college.  Some people simply don't vote because they know their vote won't count if their state is heavily for a party that they are not.

Like I said earlier my vote has never counted in the state of Texas.  You could keep the electoral college but hand out the states electoral votes for the state based on percentage of votes each candidate receives.  This would make republican vote count in California and democrat vote count in Alabama in the presidential election. 

Sure the biased of votes being more weighted for smaller states would still be there due to the electoral college but at least all the votes would actually matter instead of people who went against the majority of what their state voted for being automatically thrown out.

Good catch, that's an impact from the electoral college that I never thought about. Don't know if it would drastically change results but yes, with popular vote people would never have the attitude of not going to vote because why bother the result will be red anyway.



CaptainExplosion said:

A fitting monument to a fascist.

When I see this kind of things it almost makes me wish US could have a real fascist president so people would finally understand what is fascism instead of just repeating it around.



SpokenTruth said:

The purpose of police are to enforce laws, maintain order and safety.  The problem with the US is that we have tasked them with tons of other roles ill suited to their profession.  And instead of training them better on those other roles, it is best if we re-allocated the department funding for those types of situations/roles to actual dedicated departments and personnel such as social workers, mental health workers, etc...

That's not to say they don't need better training in their core roles.  They do. But that can easily be handled by better overtime policy/management, getting rid of quotas and qualified immunity.

The school issue is part of that 'defunding' talk.  It's the reallocation of funds from a police department to those services that would reduce the need for such police forces to begin with.  Police are a band-aid so why would you put all your budget into band-aids instead of what's causing the wounds in the first place?

I'll give you some examples. Notice how little goes to community outreach in the police department budgets?  Also notice the city budgets

The police department budget for Signal Hill - a suburb of Los Angeles.

City budget of Fullerton - another LA suburb.

San Antonio city budget:

This is a small town in the California desert.

Houston city budget:

Long Beach city budget:

Also notice how none of these budgets list schools?

Damn did not realize how much money we was using on police. As long as it gets redirected to schools and such then yeah I'm all for it. Which presidential candidates are in support of this? If I actually bother to vote that'll be a big factor.



sundin13 said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

I still think it is a good system when you have a very large country with huge differencies in population density, but only in this specific case. What I do not know if how they calculate the number of delegates per state. Need to look into it. Also I albsolutely hate when politicians want to change rules because they are losing and unfortunately its always the left or fascist leaders doing it.

One bad thing that NOBODY talks about though is how bullshit the popular vote result is. Since in a lot of states your vote may nome matter (being red in california and ny, being bkue in texas) a lot of people just dont go voting and prefer to stay home. So saying that you won college vote but lost popular vote may not be true if 100% of people knew theur vote would matter

In America, the left fights for voting equality and a high voter turnout, which is good for them.

On the other hand, the right fights for voting inequality and voter suppression, which is good for them.

Why do you consider the former to be a larger issue?

I defend what is correct and I defend that we follow established rules, if there is one thing I hate the most is politicians trying to change rules to make it beneficial for them. If there is a set of rules today, why change it? What are the interests behind the decision? From what I see usually the left wants to change rules to increase their voting base while the right wants to keep the rules. And I am always in favor or keeping the rules. You should not change the rules so you can win.

Myself I'm 100% pro voting inside prisions. If I'm not wrong, people serving jail time in US cannot vote, which I think is 100% wrong, these people should be able to vote. At the same time, I am against voting below 18 years old of whatever is the adulthood age in the country, and when I see politicians trying to bring it down to 16 it's always to increase voting to left leaning parties for obvious reasons. Also I am against illegal immigrant voting and it baffles me that people are pro it. Its an obvious tactic to increase voting for pro mass immigration parties that in exchange will be able to bring more people in that will vote for those politicians and etc. I am also 100% pro mail in voting as long as it is really possible to avoid fraud.



Alara317 said:
sundin13 said:

In America, the left fights for voting equality and a high voter turnout, which is good for them.

On the other hand, the right fights for voting inequality and voter suppression, which is good for them.

Why do you consider the former to be a larger issue?

Because he's clearly on the right. Obviously, he doesn't care about WHAT's right, he cares about what is beneficial for him! 



KLXVER said:

Seeing guys like SpokenTruth and Sundin made me realize Im not very good at debating. They do their homework, research and present their opinions very well. I might not agree with everything, but I can clearly see they are very smart and passionate people. I dont usually do this, but I want to apologize to them for wasting their time. You guys deserve better. Ill just read yours and others comments and try to learn instead of embarrassing myself.


That was hard enough to admit. I need a cigarette...

I appreciate that a lot, man. I also acknowledge that my debating style isn't really designed with understanding in mind. It often comes out of a place of frustration, which isn't always directed at the person who I am talking to, so I can be rude and harsh sometimes. I know this has a tendency to make people just put up their guard but it is a hard habit for me to break out of too.

So, sorry about that. I'm trying to be better with actually engaging with people instead of just throwing paragraphs and paragraphs of arguments at them.



EnricoPallazzo said:
sundin13 said:

In America, the left fights for voting equality and a high voter turnout, which is good for them.

On the other hand, the right fights for voting inequality and voter suppression, which is good for them.

Why do you consider the former to be a larger issue?

I defend what is correct and I defend that we follow established rules, if there is one thing I hate the most is politicians trying to change rules to make it beneficial for them. If there is a set of rules today, why change it? What are the interests behind the decision? From what I see usually the left wants to change rules to increase their voting base while the right wants to keep the rules. And I am always in favor or keeping the rules. You should not change the rules so you can win.

Myself I'm 100% pro voting inside prisions. If I'm not wrong, people serving jail time in US cannot vote, which I think is 100% wrong, these people should be able to vote. At the same time, I am against voting below 18 years old of whatever is the adulthood age in the country, and when I see politicians trying to bring it down to 16 it's always to increase voting to left leaning parties for obvious reasons. Also I am against illegal immigrant voting and it baffles me that people are pro it. Its an obvious tactic to increase voting for pro mass immigration parties that in exchange will be able to bring more people in that will vote for those politicians and etc. I am also 100% pro mail in voting as long as it is really possible to avoid fraud.

It is hard for me to reconcile the first paragraph with the second. You say that we should keep the existing rules, because changing the rules in ways that help a party is wrong, yet then you advocate for changing the rules in a way which would help a party. How do you draw this distinction, and might you be making a rash judgement on the first point given the revelations of the second?



sundin13 said:
JRPGfan said:

Biden could take Bernie as vice president couldn't he?
I would respect that, a opponent for the same party, and at the end of the day, they both get in.

He technically could, but he won't. He has already committed to a female VP candidate and possibly the most important thing for a VP for Biden is for them to be at least a bit younger, imo, as his age is one of his biggest weaknesses as a candidate.

That said, as a Bernie voter, I don't really think that Biden is a bad candidate. Certainly not worse than Clinton. Biden has been making a pretty concerted effort to collaborate with Bernie specifically and his platform has been shifted pretty far to the left on numerous issues. If you are a Bernie supporter, I feel it should be a pretty easy transition to vote for Biden in November, especially given the opponent. There is simply no comparing the horribleness of Trump to Biden.

Agreed.



- "If you have the heart of a true winner, you can always get more pissed off than some other asshole."