Forums - Politics Discussion - The US Politics |OT|

This entire thread reminds me of this:

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=107926751&page=1

What started simply enough, as an inquiry about how often one should work out, somehow devolved into a 129 page argument about...how many days there are in a week, with such gems as 'A week is sunday to sunday, moron, that's 8 days' to 'two weeks is 15 days, retard' (They use slurs a lot over there). That is how this thread comes across to me, just people arguing over the basic tenets of speech, some people making shit up to prove their point, and lying to look good. There IS a right answer, but you'd never know it based on how people are acting and how tenuous people's attachment to reality can be.



I got it all, baby! 

PS4, Switch, WiiU, XBO, PC
Vita, 3DS, Android

Top 6 this generation: 
Bloodborne, Sekiro: Shadows Die Twice, God of War, The Legend of Zelda: Breath of the Wild, Dark Souls III, Red Dead Redemption II

KManX89 said:
SpokenTruth said:

Or it would go something like this.

Trump: "How bad were the Academy Awards this year, did you see? 'And the winner is ... a movie from South Korea. What the hell was that all about? We've got enough problems with South Korea with trade, on top of it they give them the best movie of the year?"

Democrat candidates: *discussing trade - never mention a frikkin movie*

Because this is reality and this is how it happened.  Stop the what ifs.  Who the hell discusses intentional trade and thinks an Academy Award is a relevant talking point?  Only Trump.  Hell, he didn't even mention that actual problems with trading with South Korea....just bashed a movie he's never seen simply because it is foreign.

We're talking about constituents, not candidates. If the shoe were on the other foot and it were a Democratic candidate saying this, I guar-damn-tee you Republican/conservative voters (basically Trump supporters) wouldn't be defending him right now like they are the orange idiot.

And that last sentence is exactly why it's racist.

How would the Dem supporters react though is the question? Would it be the same situation just opposite reactions?

You also point out racism, while calling Trump an "orange idiot." What does his skin color have to do with anything?



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

EricHiggin said:
KManX89 said:

We're talking about constituents, not candidates. If the shoe were on the other foot and it were a Democratic candidate saying this, I guar-damn-tee you Republican/conservative voters (basically Trump supporters) wouldn't be defending him right now like they are the orange idiot.

And that last sentence is exactly why it's racist.

How would the Dem supporters react though is the question? Would it be the same situation just opposite reactions?

You also point out racism, while calling Trump an "orange idiot." What does his skin color have to do with anything?

Not that I condone name calling, but people calling Trump "orange" is not a reference to his race, but rather his seemingly unnatural skin color, brought about by a perceived over abundance of either spray tan or skin toner.  It's more a reference to his vanity and how out of touch he is.

I don't really see the point in calling Trump "orange".  It's childish, but considering the terrible things he calls other people, I'm not going to shed any tears for him either.

As a minor anecdote, my father often tans until his skin is a similar pigment to Trump's, and my family and I constantly worry about melanoma.



IvorEvilen said:
EricHiggin said:

How would the Dem supporters react though is the question? Would it be the same situation just opposite reactions?

You also point out racism, while calling Trump an "orange idiot." What does his skin color have to do with anything?

Not that I condone name calling, but people calling Trump "orange" is not a reference to his race, but rather his seemingly unnatural skin color, brought about by a perceived over abundance of either spray tan or skin toner.  It's more a reference to his vanity and how out of touch he is.

I don't really see the point in calling Trump "orange".  It's childish, but considering the terrible things he calls other people, I'm not going to shed any tears for him either.

As a minor anecdote, my father often tans until his skin is a similar pigment to Trump's, and my family and I constantly worry about melanoma.

The point was someone taking the Dem side, claiming how Trump and his supporters are racist, and then bashing Trump using a racist type skin related remark. This is proving his skin means something, which the Dems make clear skin color has no meaning and that it doesn't define people. It either does or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.

Yes, it's childish, which is also why I pointed it out. If you're going to point out someone doing bad things, someone you want gone from their position, you don't follow that up by doing bad things, especially similar to what you just accused them of. It makes you look bad, and possibly both, which then you've just proved neither is better, so if you're going to side with one or the other, what does it really matter? You could side with neither, but that's not what the situation was here.



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

EricHiggin said:
IvorEvilen said:

Not that I condone name calling, but people calling Trump "orange" is not a reference to his race, but rather his seemingly unnatural skin color, brought about by a perceived over abundance of either spray tan or skin toner.  It's more a reference to his vanity and how out of touch he is.

I don't really see the point in calling Trump "orange".  It's childish, but considering the terrible things he calls other people, I'm not going to shed any tears for him either.

As a minor anecdote, my father often tans until his skin is a similar pigment to Trump's, and my family and I constantly worry about melanoma.

The point was someone taking the Dem side, claiming how Trump and his supporters are racist, and then bashing Trump using a racist type skin related remark. This is proving his skin means something, which the Dems make clear skin color has no meaning, and that it doesn't define people. It either does or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.

Yes, it's childish, which is also why I pointed it out. If you're going to point out someone doing bad things, someone you want gone from their position, you don't follow that up by doing bad things, especially similar to what you just accused them of. It makes you look bad, and possibly both, which then you've just proved neither is better, so if you're going to side with one or the other, what does it really matter? You could side with neither, but that's not what the situation was here.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused?  Are you stating that only Democrats think skin color has no meaning?  That is certainly false.  I know a number of Republicans who would agree with that statement.  Just because a sizable portion of the Republican base is racist doesn't mean every Republican, or even a majority of Republicans, are racist.

References to skin color to refer to race versus references to skin color to refer to vanity are separate things.  That being said, people aren't orange.  It's not a natural color.  If you call someone "orange", there is no commonly associated racial connection between it and any specific group of people.  Trump is also white, so people are also culturally less concerned about being racially sensitive towards him.

Regarding your last paragraph, Trump is president.  When he mocks people or harasses them, he's punching down.  He has the power and influence to hurt people.  That's the difference.

Besides, I'm not deciding between Trump and the VGChartz person who called Trump an "orange idiot" when determining who to vote for.  I'm deciding between Trump and the Democratic nominee.  I will admit, the followers of a candidate do reflect on them to a certain extent, but anecdotal evidence from comments on this forum is not representative of either party in that regard.



IvorEvilen said:
EricHiggin said:

The point was someone taking the Dem side, claiming how Trump and his supporters are racist, and then bashing Trump using a racist type skin related remark. This is proving his skin means something, which the Dems make clear skin color has no meaning, and that it doesn't define people. It either does or it doesn't. You can't have it both ways.

Yes, it's childish, which is also why I pointed it out. If you're going to point out someone doing bad things, someone you want gone from their position, you don't follow that up by doing bad things, especially similar to what you just accused them of. It makes you look bad, and possibly both, which then you've just proved neither is better, so if you're going to side with one or the other, what does it really matter? You could side with neither, but that's not what the situation was here.

Sorry, I'm a bit confused?  Are you stating that only Democrats think skin color has no meaning?  That is certainly false.  I know a number of Republicans who would agree with that statement.  Just because a sizable portion of the Republican base is racist doesn't mean every Republican, or even a majority of Republicans, are racist.

References to skin color to refer to race versus references to skin color to refer to vanity are separate things.  That being said, people aren't orange.  It's not a natural color.  If you call someone "orange", there is no commonly associated racial connection between it and any specific group of people.  Trump is also white, so people are also culturally less concerned about being racially sensitive towards him.

Regarding your last paragraph, Trump is president.  When he mocks people or harasses them, he's punching down.  He has the power and influence to hurt people.  That's the difference.

Besides, I'm not deciding between Trump and the VGChartz person who called Trump an "orange idiot" when determining who to vote for.  I'm deciding between Trump and the Democratic nominee.  I will admit, the followers of a candidate do reflect on them to a certain extent, but anecdotal evidence from comments on this forum is not representative of either party in that regard.

I'm saying they shout it from the rooftops. There's plenty of people from the other side being quiet indoors who think the same. I'm sure some would like to proclaim it, but it would be overshadowed by a red hat, ironically.

So making fun of people with non natural different colored body parts is ok as long as it's not tied to their race or sex or gender? So if someone who's white, wears blackface, but doesn't do it for racial reasons, is that ok? What about orange and the connection to fruit, and referring to someone as a "fruit"? I'm concerned. Are they they implying Trump is gay? Are they saying that's a bad thing?

So breaking your own rules is ok as long as you're punching up? When else are the rules bendable if not breakable? How can we be sure those who use this to gain power will follow the rules once they are able to punch down?

I'm glad you see things that way, and I agree for the most part.



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

EricHiggin said:
IvorEvilen said:

Sorry, I'm a bit confused?  Are you stating that only Democrats think skin color has no meaning?  That is certainly false.  I know a number of Republicans who would agree with that statement.  Just because a sizable portion of the Republican base is racist doesn't mean every Republican, or even a majority of Republicans, are racist.

References to skin color to refer to race versus references to skin color to refer to vanity are separate things.  That being said, people aren't orange.  It's not a natural color.  If you call someone "orange", there is no commonly associated racial connection between it and any specific group of people.  Trump is also white, so people are also culturally less concerned about being racially sensitive towards him.

Regarding your last paragraph, Trump is president.  When he mocks people or harasses them, he's punching down.  He has the power and influence to hurt people.  That's the difference.

Besides, I'm not deciding between Trump and the VGChartz person who called Trump an "orange idiot" when determining who to vote for.  I'm deciding between Trump and the Democratic nominee.  I will admit, the followers of a candidate do reflect on them to a certain extent, but anecdotal evidence from comments on this forum is not representative of either party in that regard.

I'm saying they shout it from the rooftops. There's plenty of people from the other side being quiet indoors who think the same. I'm sure some would like to proclaim it, but it would be overshadowed by a red hat, ironically.

So making fun of people with non natural different colored body parts is ok as long as it's not tied to their race or sex or gender? So if someone who's white, wears blackface, but doesn't do it for racial reasons, is that ok? What about orange and the connection to fruit, and referring to someone as a "fruit"? I'm concerned. Are they they implying Trump is gay? Are they saying that's a bad thing?

So breaking your own rules is ok as long as you're punching up? When else are the rules bendable if not breakable? How can we be sure those who use this to gain power will follow the rules once they are able to punch down?

I'm glad you see things that way, and I agree for the most part.

I don't think making fun of people for how they look is appropriate, period.  I'm simply stating it's not commentary on his race, and culturally that is seen as "not-so-bad".

Comparing black face to calling Trump "orange" is not exactly comparing apples... to oranges... (Buh-dum-tssh) Because of the cultural significance of black face in the US, a white person wearing blackface for any reason is ill-advised, at the very least.  It's too easy to misconstrue the intent, even if it was admirable.  You have to think about the act and the impact it can have on marginalized people.  And in the case of Trump, I don't think people with poor tanning preferences qualify as a marginalized people of significant interest, personally.

Regarding the "fruit" association... As a gay man, that is not an association I would ever naturally draw.  In fact, I know many gay men who refer to Trump as an "orange baboon" (take that as you will).  Now, if people were calling Trump a "fruit"... Or more relevantly, referring to Buttigieg as a "fruit", I would be pretty peeved.



Ivor, you'll have to forgive Eric here. He's our resident contextual denier and false equivalency master in the Politics boards.



Massimus - "Trump already has democrat support."

Runa216 said:
This entire thread reminds me of this:

https://forum.bodybuilding.com/showthread.php?t=107926751&page=1

What started simply enough, as an inquiry about how often one should work out, somehow devolved into a 129 page argument about...how many days there are in a week, with such gems as 'A week is sunday to sunday, moron, that's 8 days' to 'two weeks is 15 days, retard' (They use slurs a lot over there). That is how this thread comes across to me, just people arguing over the basic tenets of speech, some people making shit up to prove their point, and lying to look good. There IS a right answer, but you'd never know it based on how people are acting and how tenuous people's attachment to reality can be.

I started to read through that thread and couldn't handle it haha.



IvorEvilen said:
EricHiggin said:

I'm saying they shout it from the rooftops. There's plenty of people from the other side being quiet indoors who think the same. I'm sure some would like to proclaim it, but it would be overshadowed by a red hat, ironically.

So making fun of people with non natural different colored body parts is ok as long as it's not tied to their race or sex or gender? So if someone who's white, wears blackface, but doesn't do it for racial reasons, is that ok? What about orange and the connection to fruit, and referring to someone as a "fruit"? I'm concerned. Are they they implying Trump is gay? Are they saying that's a bad thing?

So breaking your own rules is ok as long as you're punching up? When else are the rules bendable if not breakable? How can we be sure those who use this to gain power will follow the rules once they are able to punch down?

I'm glad you see things that way, and I agree for the most part.

I don't think making fun of people for how they look is appropriate, period.  I'm simply stating it's not commentary on his race, and culturally that is seen as "not-so-bad".

Comparing black face to calling Trump "orange" is not exactly comparing apples... to oranges... (Buh-dum-tssh) Because of the cultural significance of black face in the US, a white person wearing blackface for any reason is ill-advised, at the very least.  It's too easy to misconstrue the intent, even if it was admirable.  You have to think about the act and the impact it can have on marginalized people.  And in the case of Trump, I don't think people with poor tanning preferences qualify as a marginalized people of significant interest, personally.

Regarding the "fruit" association... As a gay man, that is not an association I would ever naturally draw.  In fact, I know many gay men who refer to Trump as an "orange baboon" (take that as you will).  Now, if people were calling Trump a "fruit"... Or more relevantly, referring to Buttigieg as a "fruit", I would be pretty peeved.

Well I'd say Trumps been marginalized by others for quite some time now. It's one thing to critisize his policies but his skin? I was always under the impression the spray tan is because he was told he looked bad with his super pale natural skin. Applying something to one's skin to dress yourself up doesn't seem odd especially if it does better their appearance. If Trump is sensitive about his skin, so much so he always tans it, going after it is pretty harsh then. Maybe not blackface historical harsh, but it's what it does to the individual that's the concern. 

As a straight man who used to "get under the skin" of other straight men by calling them gay references back when it was typical and seen as more acceptable when we were young, and vice versa, I could see it. There's new gay slang I've heard since, that's used to get around the no no words nowadays. Considering the initial childish remarks here, I'd guess it meant fruit before I would assume it meant he's so full of himself that he always has to have a 'fancy' tan. The worst I've heard Pete called in person is a "delicate flower", and I thought straights were supposed to be the mean ones. Then again there is Milo. 

Not quite so bad still doesn't make it much better considering the skin attack. It references something else in the end that's meant to harm the individual which is wrong. Both of us seem to agree about that though. As for calling Trump an "orange baboon", I'd say that's pretty harsh as well. Just because he's white doesn't change what the reference means.

In the end my point is trying to bash an opponent by stooping to their level, as initially described, doesn't help the cause, and can actually just make it worse. If you want change, it starts with your own actions by following what the party preaches. 



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.