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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Alternate history: N64 goes with CDs instead of cartridges

 

What do you think would've been the outcome?

N64 would've won the gen 40 62.50%
 
PS1 still would've won 24 37.50%
 
Total:64

Instant failure of true 3D experience.

Because games would have plague of optimization problems with enormous open ended maps or levels, gameplay style wouldn't be same if Nintendo opted CD format.



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Soundwave said:
DonFerrari said:

Nintendo accepted the deal, and then single side decided to terminate the contract. So they were fully at fault.

The contract was misleading and absurd, no company would agree to those terms if that's what it meant. 

Even Sony basically agreed and renegotiated the deal. 

The deal was also signed in 1988, years before any kind of gaming CD drive was even on the market let alone the SNES itself.

No company would agree but Nintendo did? Strange thing.

Renegotiating a deal doesn't mean you agree the contract is absurd, it means you accept to renegotiate to satisfy a partner. Seems like it wasn't enough and needed a backstab right?

A deal is a deal doesn't mater if it was signed today or 10 days ago. And not sure they were developing SNES CD in 1988. So perhaps you are thinking about a different deal.

SanAndreasX said:

A lot of these policies were products of the NES era, were strictly for the US market, were implemented as a backlash against the market conditions that destroyed the American video game market in 1983, and most of them were rolled back by the time the SNES hit the market, such as the five game limit. More policies still were rolled back or ended as the 16-bit generation went on. Konami disbanded Ultra Games in 1991 because they no longer needed to go through a shell corporation to release more than 5 games a year. And within a few years, publishers and developers were complaining about Sony's licensing restrictions.

The fact that they were rolled back doesn't erase the damage done nor the unsatisfaction that devs had with it. They had to do a lot of work around to go to Sega and they did because they weren't satisfied with what they had under Nintend. What licensing restrictions they were complaining under Sony? Haven't seem it, would like to read.

Sega also had multiple failed consoles. Sega NEVER had a successful console in Japan. The Mega Drive came in third to the Super Famicom and PC Engine in the 16-bit era in Japan. The Saturn ran neck-and-neck with the N64. The Master System didn't even really register in Japan. And console add-ons have likewise never successful save for cheap ones like the Super Game Boy. The Saturn was an underpowered train wreck of a console that was technically incapable of 3-D, developers had to manipulate sprites to create 3-D on it. There's an interview with the producers of Panzer Dragoon Saga that explains all that.

Not sure what you want on the multiple failed consoles, Nintendo had their share as well. Virtuaboy, N64, GC, WiiU....

Ease of development is a huge thing. Game developers would rather spend time and money fleshing out a game rather than fighting with a console's architecture just to make it do what you want. 

From what we know Sony consoles until PS4 wasn't exactly an easy development marvel as well, still didn't prevent games from releasing. So not sure the point.

Why would developers jump ship from Nintendo to a company that had a long track record of failure? Sony offered them the space they wanted without Sega's baggage or the Saturn's bizarre architecture.  

They had already jumped ship during Genesis, and some more on Saturn. But sure Sony offered something better so they gone in more intensity there.

You underestimate just how huge of a value proposition CD-ROMs were. They offered 80 times the storage of a cartridge at pennies on the dollar. Furthermore, you could use as many discs as you needed for a single game with minimal increase in manufacturing costs. I guarantee you that far outweighs any hurt fee-fees over Nintendo's policies. Had Nintendo had CD-ROMs, their track record of dominance in video games would have made them the clear first choice, especially with the loyal backing of Square and Enix.

Sony had sold 100M PS1 and was set to do more than that on PS2, didn't prevent a lot of games to launch on Xbox and even some exclusives on GC. So dominating the market don't assure anything (even more when change of gen is coming).

Square did everything they could to stay with N64 and only left when it became clear that the N64 didn't have what they wanted for FFVII, namely the storage necessary to contain a huge game and the cinematic FMV scenes. FMV is extremely space-intensive. They specifically cited storage space as the issue. They weren't "under the lash" at all. Nintendo actually treated them very well given their role in the success of the Super Famicom. 

They listed as the major reason, not the sole reason. Interviews were given in this thread. And they treated Square and Enix so well that they listened to 0 of the requests and FF or DQ weren't the sole games that both companies forfeit on N64 were they?

Xbox was an American console. Japan is notoriously nationalistic when it comes to cars and electronics, save for outliers like the iPhone. Japanese developers knew this and didn't waste their money on developing for it. The Gamecube did far better than the Xbox in Japan and got far more Japanese games. 

Not sure what the sales of Xbox have to do here, but ok.

NES had no effective competitors in the market. SNES had two major competitors and still smoked both of them. Plus they had the Game Boy, which crushed every competitor it ever had. 

Then Master System done fantastic as a console that didn't exist. SNES didn't smoke anyone, it won against Genesis by very thin margins. If that is smoking a competitor I would like to see the superlative you would use to describe what PS1, PS2 and PS4 have done to Nintendo HW.

Incentives only go so far. Microsoft moneyhatted quite a few Japanese games early in the 360's life to try and boost the system in Japan. After a few games actually turned into financial failures despite Microsoft's money, the developers in question moved them to Wii or PS3, which were more popular, in order to salvage the situation. We almost lost the Tales series for good because of Microsoft moneyhatting Vesperia on 360. 

Sure. Still don't know why do you think that a moneyhat wouldn't have changed FFVII to PS1 even if N64 had a CD-ROM. SE put FF XIII on X360 even though PS was the platform it appeared and sold most from several releases. And even after seeing how little Xbox sold FF they still launched FFXIII-2 and Lightning Returns, FF XIV and FFXV.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

The_Liquid_Laser said:
HylianSwordsman said:
As others have said, the major game changer, literally, in this alternate scenario is that FFVII comes to the N64, possibly as an exclusive. If it's as an exclusive, I don't see Nintendo's dominance ending nearly as quickly. People don't realize just how stupid a blunder Nintendo's insistence on sticking with cartridges was. That was THE moment they screwed themselves on 3rd party support, and they never really recovered. With Gamecube they made the problem worse by insisting on those stupid little disks, then with the Wii they stopped making their consoles powerful, and the Wii U, well...

For sure though, the N64 would have done way, way better if it hadn't stuck with cartridges. It's obviously impossible to know, but I suspect they'd have outsold the SNES, and probably the NES as well. If it only sold better than the SNES I think the PS1 would've just outsold it by 10 or 15 million or so. But if it outsold the NES, I think it would've also outsold the PS1.

I agree with everything you are saying, but sticking with cartridges wasn't actually the dumbest part.  The dumbest part is that Sony was originally their business partner.  Nintendo brought Sony into the gaming space, so that Sony could develop a CD based system for them.  After Sony develops the hardware, the Nintendo Playstation, Nintendo backs out and partners with Phillips instead to make the CD-i (e.g. Wand of Gamelon, etc...).

Nintendo could have actually had Sony as their partner.  Instead they turned Sony into their competitor.  This was the ultimate self-destruct move.  Nintendo wasn't anti-CD or anything.  They just backed out of their original CD system, the Nintendo Playstation, because they got a better deal from Phillips instead.

Oh yeah, I forgot about that. Yeah, Sony just didn't want to waste the money the spent developing that so they decided to use it to make their own console. Come to think of it, the thread's question is almost absurd, because if Nintendo had gone with CD's, they'd likely have gone with Sony, and thus there would be no Playstation or N64, only the Nintendo Playstation.

That said, they didn't want to go with Sony because Sony actually was bullying them, wanting control of software licensing, so I don't blame Nintendo for not going with Sony, but they should have been more careful before getting into bed with Sony in the first place, and not have waited until Sony had a prototype to hammer out the details of the deal. If they'd gone with another company from the beginning (preferably not Phillips) then Sony would never have gotten interested in the gaming industry in the first place, as it started out as a pet project by one of their engineers whose progress caught the interest of Nintendo. And of course, if they had gone with Sony, it would likely be because they had a better contract worked out instead of the horrible one they got in our timeline.



OTBWY said:
Hynad said:

I’m sorry?

Hironobu Sakaguchi

Producer and executive vice president, Square Japan; Chairman and chief executive officer, Square USA

Of course, back then I wasn’t the president of Square. There was a management level above me, and I talked with them to make the decision. But PlayStation games being on CDs was the biggest factor. If you wanted to make a 3D action game on a Nintendo 64 cartridge with that limited space, you could do it. But I wanted to create a 3D role-playing game. It was very clear in my head what I wanted to make, but that would have been difficult on Nintendo’s hardware. …The biggest problem was, of course, memory. Based on our calculations there was no way it could all fit on a ROM cartridge. So our main reason for choosing the PlayStation was really just because it was the only console which would allow us to use CD-ROM media.

Shinichiro Kajitani

Vice president, Square USA

At that time, Square was really close to Nintendo — we were basically like a second party for them. So when their new system was in development, we gave them lots of advice, like, “You’re going to need a CD-ROM drive for it,” “You don’t have enough bandwidth to do what we’re trying to do,” and, “With what you have now, we’re not going to be able to make an RPG.” We gave them lots of advice. But [Nintendo president] Yamauchi-san at Nintendo basically refused to listen to any of it. And that’s when Sakaguchi-san and the management team at Square decided, “OK, we’re going to go with Sony now.”

https://gonintendo.com/stories/289651-square-enix-opens-up-about-trying-to-make-final-fantasy-vii-for-n

What you mention about the SNES CD add-on most likely contributed, considering they were having the same struggle making the games they wanted for Nintendo’s hardware, but there is no denying FF VII was the tipping point. 

You can make conjectures based on what happened with Mana and the SNES-CD, but Sakaguchi and co have been candid about the reasons from the very beginning and their story has always remained the same throughout the years

You're not reading. The game itself was not the tipping point as you put it, the format was. IE: The CD format that they previously worked with Sony on. This is the sole reason their relationship started (as Sony continued to woo Square) and culminated with the breakaway when Sony released their console and Nintendo came with the N64.

The reasoning has changed over many years, ergo, I don't completely trust anything coming from Sakaguchi at that. It has to do with various reasons, for example not wanting to step on certain toes. To be even more clear why I think this:

"It wasn’t really “officially” in development for the Nintendo 64. It was more like we were experimenting with the hardware." - Yoshinori Kitase

"Anyway, we made a 2,000-count polygon version of Behemoth for the Nintendo 64, but when we rendered and animated it, the framerate was way too low. To properly display Behemoth with that technology, we needed 2,000 polygons, but it was a little too much for the hardware. That was part of the problem with choosing Nintendo."- Yoshinori Kitase

That very same source comes from the Polygon article, which I recommend. Anyway, with this they allude to the reason being power not being the way they wanted, and that's why the game didn't come. So stories clearly vary. However, you have to think that not a single game came from Square, so there was more to it than just a format decision, it was clear than Square grew close to Sony and the Playstation team, hence their clear break. it doesn't however change the fact of what started way sooner.

Either way, putting that aside, I don't even believe FFVII tipped the scale in favour of the PS1 that much, it was just as many here have said already. The PS1 had more games. That third party support was the key factor. I don't think Square staying with N64 would have changed that. In fact, it would have probably decreased their output significantly, so the impact wouldn't be that much more. The only thing I could see happening in that scenario, was that the N64 would have been more popular in Japan, definitely not lagging behind the Saturn as it did.

I’ve always heard that the SGI chip in he N64 was more powerful (at 3D) than the chipin the PS1, but my info might be wrong.



You guys need to remember that the games format wasnt the only problem Nintendo had back in the day.Sure, it was probably one of the biggest, but not the only one.They had bad relations with developers(due to the cuts and restrictions that they imposed if Im not mistaken) and bad relations with retailers, even if this final point was due to the high cost of the cartriges.

Probably there is more, but you get the gist of it.Having said that, the PS1 won because of the many developers that jumped ship and went to the PS1, like Square.



My (locked) thread about how difficulty should be a decision for the developers, not the gamers.

https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=241866&page=1

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Nautilus said:
You guys need to remember that the games format wasnt the only problem Nintendo had back in the day.Sure, it was probably one of the biggest, but not the only one.They had bad relations with developers(due to the cuts and restrictions that they imposed if Im not mistaken) and bad relations with retailers, even if this final point was due to the high cost of the cartriges.

Probably there is more, but you get the gist of it.Having said that, the PS1 won because of the many developers that jumped ship and went to the PS1, like Square.

Even this is not entirely true. By the N64 era, Nintendo has already started to repair their relationships with companies like Namco and Capcom. 

Namco had a long grudge against Nintendo, but they ironed that out and agreed to let Nintendo even make a Ridge Racer game (RR64, developed by NST for the N64). With Capcom they started to woo them back by getting RE2 ported somehow onto a massive cart and then a deal for Resident Evil 0, which got moved to the GameCube and they made a bigger deal for RE exclusivity.

Developers don't make decisions based on "like" or "dislike" this isn't junior high, this is a business. If Nintendo had CDs, they would've kept Final Fantasy most notably and dominated Japan at the very least, which makes it virtually impossible for any Japanese developer to keep their games off the system not matter how much they like another company. 



SanAndreasX said:
Chris Hu said:

Yeah, no Sony was never the biggest or most powerful brand in electronics not even in Japan Panasonic is still bigger and so is Hitachi.

Microsoft is bigger and more powerful than any of them, but they barely squeaked into 2nd place with the Xbox, came in 2nd with the 360 only after Kinect, and is going to finish in third place this generation to a system that came out two and a half years after the Xbox One.

The original X Box could have sold a lot more and was forced to end production earlier then planned thanks to a bad business deal between MS and NVIDA.  Also it never reached the fire sale price that the Gamecube got towards the end of its life cycle so the original X Box did more than barely squeak into second place when you consider all those factors.  Plus it sold way more games per console then either the PS2, Gamecube and Dreamcast and the 360 and X1 are also beasts when it comes to selling software.



JRPGfan said:

^ whats crazy is that Nintendo hasnt changed.

They still design hardware, around their own wants and needs, and basically ignore 3rd party input (on hardware).

In addition to the already-mentioned boosting of Switch's RAM as per third party request, many devs have spoken at length about how developer-friendly the Switch is to make games for. It uses all standardized, well documented parts and architecture with no exotic or convoluted engineering, and natively supports popular third party engines like Unity and UE4.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 15 August 2019

DonFerrari said:
Shadow1980 said:

What policies are those?

There's no evidence that gamers would have jumped ship without the games to incentivize them to do so (games and price are the two biggest factors by far in determining a system's success), and there's no evidence that the big third parties would have jumped ship anyway regardless of format. We have interviews with Square staff where they routinely single out the N64's cartridge format as a reason for switching to the PS1, so we do know that format was the reason why arguably the most important PS1 game came to the PS1 in the first place. Enix almost certainly switched over for the same reason. CDs offered over ten times the capacity of an N64 cartridge at one-tenth the cost, which made them extremely attractive to many established publishers who wanted to make grand adventures (the N64 was not known for its strong selection of JRPGs). Capcom and Konami released games for the Saturn as well as the PS1 before the former tanked in Japan and the latter hit the big time, which is in keeping with their prior behavior of supporting two systems, but their support for the N64 was minimal, again almost certainly due to the expensive, low-capacity cartridge format (both of them released far more games for the GC than they ever did for the N64, even if they weren't putting their biggest and best games on it).

Every bit of evidence accumulated over the past 23 years points to Nintendo's decisions when it comes to hardware design being the reason why they've struggled with third-party support on their home consoles after the 16-bit era.

"Let's us all remember GameCube was disc based and suffered an even worse defeat against PS2, and we can't put the "brand" as a big advantage for PS there since Nintendo had a longer image on the market and much more fans."

The PS2 was riding the momentum of the PS1, while the GameCube was also having to split the remainder of the U.S. market share with Xbox. Oh, and the GC's discs were mini-DVDs with a capacity of only 1.5MB, only a bit over double that of a CD, a third the capacity of a single-layer DVD, and less than 18% the capacity of a double-layer DVD. Many PS2 & Xbox games would not have fit on a single GC disc (even some PS1 games wouldn't have). Few developers were in the habit of splitting games across multiple discs, and nearly all of the relatively small number of multi-disc releases after Gen 5 weren't actually multi-disc games, with the second disc usually being a bonus disc with extra features (though a tiny handful of post-Gen 5 games did have the multiplayer on Disc 2, and FFXIII was a 2-disc release on the 360). Also, a developer that worked on Max Payne cited the GameCube’s lower main RAM (24MB, vs 32MB for the PS2 and 64MB for the Xbox) as a reason for why they didn’t port their game to the system despite releasing it for the PS2 and Xbox, though as far as I'm aware of they were the only ones citing RAM as a concern.

In any case, many of the most popular third-party games in Gen 6 were either PS2 exclusive, or were released on the PS2 & Xbox but not the GameCube. The GC missed out on huge titles like Final Fantasy, Metal Gear, Grand Theft Auto, Kingdom Hearts, and Star Wars: Battlefront. While it wasn't the only factor, the GameCube's format was almost certainly what kept many big-name games off of the system. As a result, while the GameCube did have arguably better third-party support than the N64, it was still inferior to that enjoyed by the Xbox and especially the PS2.

I'm pretty sure you know about the policies from Nintendo on NES and SNES but a quicklink for you https://books.google.com/books?id=XiM0ntMybNwC&pg=PA110&lpg=PA110&dq=the+draconian+policies+of+nintendo&source=bl&ots=1YvtCgsvLl&sig=ACfU3U1N4c0c-tOfQR9wqrK2-4L66X1m9g&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwi4vv3H7oLkAhUoo1kKHdjPAjUQ6AEwBXoECAcQAQ#v=onepage&q=the%20draconian%20policies%20of%20nintendo&f=false

https://nerdtrek.com/nintendos-restrictive-licensing-history/

So several of those devs were ready to jump ship. CD-ROM is a reason for it? Sure, but Sega CD had a CD, Saturn had a CD and that didn't made Nintendo lose. It was an effect of Sony involvement.

We always go the way of all the success of Sony is the result of competitors doing bad, no merits to Sony.

Xbox had better HW and DVD and didn't get many of the games PS2 received.

Momentum per Momentum, NES came from SNES and sold much lower than the other due to Genesis (and it wasn't due to CD as well), N64 came from SNES. So the least momentum piece would be PS1 and it still won.

Depending on the incentive games will release on platform with limitations, RE4 released on PS2 even though promissed not to because of the limitations as an example, and the Switch ports are another.

PS1 was so dominant that in the year 2000, Playstation WAS video games. The Dreamcast was dead before it even arrived because of PS2 hype. Even with a lackluster library, the PS2 was flying off of shelves until the Great games began to arrive in late 2001. I tried to get a PS2 on launch day. Even had a friend who worked at Walmart. He came back empty handed. I couldn't get a PS2 until like March 2001 and even then I had to drive like 70 miles.

PSM magazine had an article back then saying that the console war was over before GameCube and Xbox sold their first console. They had stats and everything. The year's headstart pretty much sealed the deal. It didn't matter if the kiddie looking GameCube was more powerful (and didn't even play DVDs). It didn't matter if the unproven Microsoft Xbox was more powerful. PS2 had the legacy of the PS1 and enough key features and support to nullify anything the competition had to offer.

PS1 was where Xbox was at launch. It was unproven and gamers weren't open to change. PS1 had the advantage of Sega being pretty much unreliable and Nintendo 64 having multiple delays. The choice to stick with cartridges was just the nail in the coffin.

And yes, tons of other consoles used CDs but up until the 5th gen, the advantages were still being worked out. It was more or less music and cutscenes at the expense of speed and reliability. That's another reason why Nintendo stuck with carts. Discs were fragile and gamers were perceived to be mostly kids (Though I think the average gamer at the time was 30).

Gaming was ready to grow up. Disc based technology was mature enough. 3D tech was at a point where believeable worlds could be created. Saturn was still stronger in the 2D department as Sega didn't focus on 3D like the competion did (Sony actually turned down certain 2D games because they felt 3D was the future).  It was just a perfect storm and PlayStation was the only real option. 

*Edit* Did I even reply to the right person!? 🤷‍♂️



curl-6 said:
JRPGfan said:

^ whats crazy is that Nintendo hasnt changed.

They still design hardware, around their own wants and needs, and basically ignore 3rd party input (on hardware).

In addition to the already-mentioned boosting of Switch's RAM as per third party request, many devs have spoken at length about how developer-friendly the Switch is to make games for. It uses all standardized, well documented parts and architecture with no exotic or convoluted engineering, and natively supports popular third party engines like Unity and UE4.

Yes its useing more common and normal designs... because they basically bought a entire package in one, from nvidia.

At the same time, its Arm, while the current gen consoles are x86.
And its like 1/4th the power, of the launch PS4.
it also requires you to make games, with a docked mode + handheld mode (twice the efforts).

How much more easy to develope for, would the switch be if it was just a traditional console? around the power of the PS4-XB1, and had a x86 cpu?

However the Switch is easier to develope for than many past nintendo consoles probably were.
PS3 was horrible to develope for.... so to be fair its just not a nintendo issue. Sony learnt from it though, and went "never again".

Perphaps Nintendo is changeing for the better too.