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EnricoPallazzo on 03 June 2020
KiigelHeart said:
Soundwave said:

You don't get human rights by asking politely. That's never really happened. Shit doesn't even work like that on a goddamn elementary playground, a bully does not stop bullying anyone just because they are asked politely or peacefully. They may damn well consider stopping when they're punched back in the face though. 

This is unfortunately also the reason why police have to use force, even lethal force sometimes. 

But around Europe, there has been constant change to human rights and the way police operates and uses force without much violent rioting. Not saying there hasn't been riots, but plenty of things have changed without them.

Problems in US run deeper so maybe you can't compare US and EU countries..but that's part of the issue. 

I think one of the reasons is because most people dont have guns is most of european countries, so the police can have a much different approach. Although I believe in some places this might change in the future. At the same time, at least in uk, sometimes you have some hilarious situations where the police just cant get the criminals. They just run away and there is nothing the police can do since they do not carry guns or anything.



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Machiavellian on 03 June 2020
EnricoPallazzo said:
KiigelHeart said:

This is unfortunately also the reason why police have to use force, even lethal force sometimes. 

But around Europe, there has been constant change to human rights and the way police operates and uses force without much violent rioting. Not saying there hasn't been riots, but plenty of things have changed without them.

Problems in US run deeper so maybe you can't compare US and EU countries..but that's part of the issue. 

I think one of the reasons is because most people dont have guns is most of european countries, so the police can have a much different approach. Although I believe in some places this might change in the future. At the same time, at least in uk, sometimes you have some hilarious situations where the police just cant get the criminals. They just run away and there is nothing the police can do since they do not carry guns or anything.

Should that not tell you something concerning the difference between the US and other countries especially Europe.  Cops are trained to shoot to kill if they pull out their gun.  They are trained to aim for the chest.  The US is a nation built on having and possessing guns.  Its always about having having that smoke, being able to shoot someone you are fearful of.  Many laws allow you to shoot someone just because you felt threaten and for Police during shootings this is their main go to defense.  

The thing is, you cannot compare the US to Europe because the US has a culture of violence.  We see it all the time from police brutality, school shootings, psycho shootings, gang shootings you name it.  The US violent pass against POC, Indians, Blacks, Asians you name it.  The language the US understand is violence because that is how the US gained its freedom and how any real change happen within the country.  People do not do anything in the US until their life is impacted.  



EnricoPallazzo on 03 June 2020
Ka-pi96 said:
EnricoPallazzo said:

I think one of the reasons is because most people dont have guns is most of european countries, so the police can have a much different approach. Although I believe in some places this might change in the future. At the same time, at least in uk, sometimes you have some hilarious situations where the police just cant get the criminals. They just run away and there is nothing the police can do since they do not carry guns or anything.

Yeah, I touched on that earlier and it probably does contribute. Most UK police for example literally can't shoot black people because they don't have guns to shoot them with.

Take guns out of the equation and I fully expect there would be less people wrongly killed by police. It wouldn't have changed this incident, since guns didn't have any impact here, but it would help things overall.

Oh and @The bolded, there's a lot cops can do when people run away without shooting them. Are you actually telling me all those cop shows/movies where American police chase criminals or try to track them down after the fact are lies and instead American cops just pull out their guns and shoot them in the back?

It depends on how well a country can take care of its borders. If they cant then the criminals will get access to guns easily while the population wont, becoming defenceless. Brazil is a good example. Then the police will have to go back carring guns. 



sethnintendo on 03 June 2020

“I agree, unlike other states that are poorly run & managed, Texas is in great shape,” Trump said. He also asserted “the Southern Border Wall, which is going up FAST, puts it in even better position!”

I always knew that border wall was going to help the state I reside in be in better position against mass protests.  I just wish he would put a wall around all those damn pesky wind turbines here in Texas so it can block the cancer emitting rays they produce.



Machiavellian on 03 June 2020
Ka-pi96 said:
Machiavellian said:

Should that not tell you something concerning the difference between the US and other countries especially Europe.  Cops are trained to shoot to kill if they pull out their gun.  They are trained to aim for the chest.  The US is a nation built on having and possessing guns.  Its always about having having that smoke, being able to shoot someone you are fearful of.  Many laws allow you to shoot someone just because you felt threaten and for Police during shootings this is their main go to defense.  

The thing is, you cannot compare the US to Europe because the US has a culture of violence.  We see it all the time from police brutality, school shootings, psycho shootings, gang shootings you name it.  The US violent pass against POC, Indians, Blacks, Asians you name it.  The language the US understand is violence because that is how the US gained its freedom and how any real change happen within the country.  People do not do anything in the US until their life is impacted.  

There are some problems with this.

Firstly, I believe Switzerland has more guns per capita than the US. How many murders/mass shootings do you get there? It's certainly possible to have possessing guns be a pretty major thing in a country without having all the gun violence.

Secondly, plenty of European countries have violent pasts too, yet they've toned it down significantly these days compared to the US. Just look at Scandinavia. They were the vikings, one of the most violent cultures on the planet, yet these days it's one of the best and fairest places in the world to live. Both Ireland and the Netherlands gained their freedom through violence as well (and probably other European countries), yet they too are some of the best countries in the world to live in.

Racism is still an issue in Europe. No doubt about that. But the US just takes racism to a whole nother level. And it can't really claim a unique history as the reason either. So what the fuck is the issue?

You are missing the point.  Does Switzerland have the same history or culture as the US.  People always throw Switzerland in the mix forgetting the 2 countries are totally different including the make up and structure of their society.  A gun is just a tool, the violence is from an institution of violence for centuries that has progressed unabated.  I am not saying that guns is why the US is violent, I am saying the US is violent because of its history.  The gun is just a tool to enforce it.

Let me ask you a question, exactly how diverse are some of those countries you mentioned.



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Bofferbrauer2 on 03 June 2020
Ka-pi96 said:
Machiavellian said:

Should that not tell you something concerning the difference between the US and other countries especially Europe.  Cops are trained to shoot to kill if they pull out their gun.  They are trained to aim for the chest.  The US is a nation built on having and possessing guns.  Its always about having having that smoke, being able to shoot someone you are fearful of.  Many laws allow you to shoot someone just because you felt threaten and for Police during shootings this is their main go to defense.  

The thing is, you cannot compare the US to Europe because the US has a culture of violence.  We see it all the time from police brutality, school shootings, psycho shootings, gang shootings you name it.  The US violent pass against POC, Indians, Blacks, Asians you name it.  The language the US understand is violence because that is how the US gained its freedom and how any real change happen within the country.  People do not do anything in the US until their life is impacted.  

Secondly, plenty of European countries have violent pasts too, yet they've toned it down significantly these days compared to the US. Just look at Scandinavia. They were the vikings, one of the most violent cultures on the planet, yet these days it's one of the best and fairest places in the world to live. Both Ireland and the Netherlands gained their freedom through violence as well (and probably other European countries), yet they too are some of the best countries in the world to live in.

This always reminds me a scene from Bowling for Columbine, where the violent history got named as a cause, followed by how then do you explain this and scenes of Nazi Germany and World War II, brutal British colonialism, Japanese massacres in China, etc... and then shows that gun violence (and violence in general) is much lower in all these countries these days than in the US.

I think the US didn't have such a destructive war on their own soil as WWI and WWII proved to be to Europe and much of Asia and certainly had some catharsis factor at the very least.



The Nintendo eShop rating Thread: http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread.php?id=237454 List as Google Doc:  https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1aW2hXQT1TheElVS7z-F3pP-7nbqdrDqWNTxl6JoJWBY/edit?usp=sharing

The Steam/GOG key gifting thread: https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread/242024/the-steamgog-key-gifting-thread/1/ 

Free Pc Games thread: https://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/thread/248138/free-pc-games/1/

vivster on 03 June 2020

The big irony here is that the police above everyone else should be trained to defuse dangerous situations WITHOUT the use of force. Talking people down, unarmed combat and calm deescalation are the main pillars of creating order, with force only used as the very last resort.

Somehow the US managed to twist it that the police thinks just because they're the only ones allowed to use force, that they should use it as much as possible to make their job as easy as possible. That's so incredibly pathetic, but it's not surprising considering what kind of pathetic people are allowed within the force.

Any policeman who is not able to subdue or control an unarmed suspect without the use of a weapon has the wrong job and should be fired or relegated to desk work immediately.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.

KLAMarine on 03 June 2020
sundin13 said:
KLAMarine said:

1) Apprehending someone is not the same as robbing a bank.

2) If memory serves, one of the proposed reforms was decriminalizing loud music. So if my neighbor's loud music is preventing me from getting sleep, are police powerless to stop my neighbor?

3) I simply think some of the ways progress is being pushed is more destructive than constructive.

1) It ceased to be anything that could be considered a simple apprehension as soon as George Floyd said that he couldn't breathe.

2) Decriminalization is defined as the following: to repeal a strict ban on while keeping under some form of regulation.

These infractions would still be responded to by police, however, it would be treated more similarly to how traffic violations are treated. It would not be considered a crime, or go on a criminal record, but the police would still respond and potentially issue fines if necessary. For some of the other things on the list, even this level of enforcement isn't necessary. These changes are important in both changing how the police respond to these issues as well as in changing how people are brought into the criminal justice system, and the negative consequences that come with that.

I will say additionally that I find it very interesting that you are nitpicking fairly non-important points in that document though. I would appreciate it if you would plainly say what you are trying to say and why you think it is important in future posts regarding this topic instead of asking fairly meaningless questions without any specified reason, to avoid miscommunication and incorrect assumptions.

3) And I simply think that the way you express this gives power to those who do not wish to see change.

EDIT: Clarified point 2.

1) True but per https://assets.documentcloud.org/documents/6933246/Derek-Chauvin-Complaint.pdf , Floyd also complained about being claustrophobic. I think the officers thought Floyd was crying wolf at that point. I'm expecting these officers to defend their actions along this line.

2) I'm giving your proposals serious consideration. That one concerned me, among others.

3) It also gives power to authorities to use force.

SpokenTruth said:
KLAMarine said:
https://www.boredpanda.com/george-floyd-police-brutality-protest/

Why do these articles always say "X that the MSM doesn't show you" when I've already seen it on MSM?  Nevermind, I'll ell you.  Click Bait.

KLAMarine said:

1) Apprehending someone is not the same as robbing a bank.

3) I simply think some of the ways progress is being pushed is more destructive than constructive.

1). Vandalizing property isn't the same thing as decades of oppression, racial profiling, unfair incarcerations, unbalanced judicial system, beatings and death.  But here you keep equating it as such.  More to the point Sundin made, an accessory is an accessory.  They weren't just apprehending him, they were killing him.

3). And there in lies you're problem.  You still do not understand that this 1 incident of rioting is a reaction to decades of slights against them.  You're mad at the wrong damn thing. Got a question for you.....if those decades of oppression, racial profiling, unfair incarcerations, unbalanced judicial system, beatings and death never happened, do you think there would still be riots right now?

I'm going to copy/paste something I wrote earlier.

Being a member of an oppressive group telling the oppressed how they should protest...you're basically spitting in their face AND oppressing them further.

White: "Protest peacefully and we'll help fix it."
Black: "Let's march down the streets like Dr. King."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "OK, I'm going to take a knee at a sporting event."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "OK, I'm going to make a speech at an awards show to spread awareness."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "Ok, I'm going to wear a shirt that says, "I Can't Breathe."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "OK, I'm going to wear a shirt that say, "Hands Up, Don't Shoot."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "Ok, I'm going to do a song and dance tribute at the Super Bowl half time show."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "Ok, I'm going to give a speech at the end of a theatrical performance."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "OK, I'm going to create a campaign that says our lives are important."
White: "No, not like that."

Black: "Then how the hell do you want us to protest?"
White: "Peacefully....you know, so peacefully I don't have to even know or hear about it."

Black: *This is why we riot*
White: "Why can't you protest peacefully?"

When your constructive actions make no change to the system and names keep getting added to this very appreciated list, destruction is the only result.

You didn't change when they took a knee.  Now they take a stand.  Now you're wishing like hell that they'd go back to taking a knee.  Too late.

"And there in lies you're problem.  You still do not understand that this 1 incident of rioting is a reaction to decades of slights against them.  You're mad at the wrong damn thing."

>Can't I be mad at more than 1 thing at the same time? I'm angry at former officer Derek too but he's been fired, his wife is divorcing him, and is on trial. I hope he gets his just desserts but it's in the hands of the courts now.

"Got a question for you.....if those decades of oppression, racial profiling, unfair incarcerations, unbalanced judicial system, beatings and death never happened, do you think there would still be riots right now?"

>I try not to comment on such hypotheticals but I'm guessing the majority of participants in these protests never personally faced these things. All we needed was the video for people to get riled up, among them opportunists who were more interested in free merch than actual positive change.

"White: "Protest peacefully and we'll help fix it."
Black: "Let's march down the streets like Dr. King."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "OK, I'm going to take a knee at a sporting event."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "OK, I'm going to make a speech at an awards show to spread awareness."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "Ok, I'm going to wear a shirt that says, "I Can't Breathe."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "OK, I'm going to wear a shirt that say, "Hands Up, Don't Shoot."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "Ok, I'm going to do a song and dance tribute at the Super Bowl half time show."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "Ok, I'm going to give a speech at the end of a theatrical performance."
White: "No, not like that."
Black: "OK, I'm going to create a campaign that says our lives are important."
White: "No, not like that."

Black: "Then how the hell do you want us to protest?"
White: "Peacefully....you know, so peacefully I don't have to even know or hear about it."

Black: *This is why we riot*
White: "Why can't you protest peacefully?""

>And I'm still looking for the individual whose viewpoint matches this exact pattern. I'd like to share with you my take:

"White: "Protest peacefully and we'll help fix it."
Black: "Let's march down the streets like Dr. King."
White: Awesome! I'd like to join you! While we're at it, let's vote for candidates who will push for positive change!
Black: "OK, I'm going to take a knee at a sporting event."
White: Not sure that's the best thing, people could misinterpret it or twist it to fit their own message. May I suggest a shirt with a more clear-cut message?
Black: "OK, I'm going to make a speech at an awards show to spread awareness."
White: Okay, I hope the speech is good.
Black: "Ok, I'm going to wear a shirt that says, "I Can't Breathe."
White: Can I suggest an additional line of "Justice for Eric Garner" so people know who we're talking about?
Black: "OK, I'm going to wear a shirt that say, "Hands Up, Don't Shoot."
White: Most excellent, I'm tempted to buy one.
Black: "Ok, I'm going to do a song and dance tribute at the Super Bowl half time show."
White: Gonna need to see this song and dance before I can give my take on it...
Black: "Ok, I'm going to give a speech at the end of a theatrical performance."
White: Hope the speech is good.
Black: "OK, I'm going to create a campaign that says our lives are important."
White: What proposals will this movement be pushing?

Black: *This is why we riot*
White: You're just giving an excuse for use of force and some might agree with this use of force. I think this strategy runs the risk of alienating potential allies as well.

"When your constructive actions make no change to the system and names keep getting added to this very appreciated list, destruction is the only result."

>I'm looking for Daniel Shaver in this list. Is he in there?

I see Walter Scott in there as well. The former cop who killed him now rots in a cell as he should, I'd like to think this is a good example of justice served.

And Sandra Bland is in there: didn't she kill herself? Not sure I'd call this police brutality...

Machiavellian said:
KLAMarine said:

"People have been having their lives ruined for decades with unjust profiling, planted evidence, unfair judicial representation/bail/sentences, beatings and deaths...."

>And I don't think I could find anyone who would defend these acts. The act of lashing out at innocent parties however I fear isn't equally condemned.

The key here is that all you do is say those acts are bad but it never moves you to do anything about it because you do not suffer from it.  Its like watching a video of bad crap happening in another country.  Yeah, that's bad, poor bastards but when you wake up in the morning you have already moved on.  You can agree that what happen to Floyd was bad but since its rare you would suffer from it, you have already moved on.  This is the problem.  The lack of action, the lack of empthy, the lack of really caring and making it an issue.  Your life isn't disrupted so no need to do anything about it.  Those poor bastards have it rough but as long as they do not disrupt my life, I am fine.

When you have ignored their plight long enough and violence break out, now you all riled up but only about the riot.  You saw the signs, you knew their plight for years, even decades if you are old enough but since it did not effect your life no big deal.  When the violence happens all you ever do is concentrate on the violence forgetting how often you ignored and allowed the issues to build up.  The riots give you another reason to do nothing because you have an excuse to not condemn the plight that sparked the violence just as much as the riot.  They are not equal in your eyes and so the cycle repeats itself over and over again and until the nation burns and your life is deeply effected.  Then, just maybe then you would say just do something to shut them up.

I think I learned not too long ago that I'm only one person and my actions will have little effect, if any, going one way or the other. I can neither stop nor start the riots or the looting or the necessary reforms.

Sometimes I feel like a grain of sand being washed over by the ebb and flow of the tides of life...



OTBWY on 03 June 2020

The problem is not just cops though, it is a system that produces people that act a certain way. In this case cops are probably not vetted, trained properly, are passed on stuff from older experienced cops that perpetuate profiling and such. Causing also a frat boy culture in the force itself.

And what I mean more about it not just being cops, the whole country has problems when it comes to discrimination, and I think that is kind of message of the whole situation in that it is a culmination of many other things that show how black people in America are treated. A generations long system that keeps the cycle in place.



KiigelHeart on 03 June 2020
vivster said:

The big irony here is that the police above everyone else should be trained to defuse dangerous situations WITHOUT the use of force. Talking people down, unarmed combat and calm deescalation are the main pillars of creating order, with force only used as the very last resort.

Somehow the US managed to twist it that the police thinks just because they're the only ones allowed to use force, that they should use it as much as possible to make their job as easy as possible. That's so incredibly pathetic, but it's not surprising considering what kind of pathetic people are allowed within the force.

Any policeman who is not able to subdue or control an unarmed suspect without the use of a weapon has the wrong job and should be fired or relegated to desk work immediately.

lol nowhere in the world is every cop able to subdue every unarmed suspect in every situation with "unarmed combat". We wouldn't have many female officers if that was a requirement for example. 

Using a firearm should be the last resort and never used against unarmed suspects of course. But tools like mace and taser are also used to subdue a subject safely for both the police and suspect. It always depends on resistance, location and situation in general. 

Talking and de-escalating are the first steps. If an officer is good at doing that and hae other good qualities, I wouldn't give him a desk job because he/she isn't a martial arts champion.