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coolbeans said:
Soundwave said:
Fact of the matter is the only reason this cop was charged with anything more than a slap on the wrist is because of violent rioting.

If that didn't happen, a man getting murdered on camera would've been swept under the rug and nothing would have been done.

This kind of speculation is based on emotional frustration & ignorance of these proceedings.  

I have to say this speculation is the common feeling of most POC when it involves the police and the death of a civilian by their hands.  If you get a chance, check out the Philando Castile case where a cop shot a man in his car with his wife and daughter there.  The man told the cop he had a gun which is legal in that state.  The officer asked him for his license and when the man moved to get it, the cop freaked out stating do not go for your gun and Philando stated multiple times he is not reaching for his gun.  Anyway the point is that he was shot to death and the officer after acquitted of all charges.  Just for context this also happened in Minnesota so you can expect that POC probably were feeling not justice would be serve in this situation.



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Otter said:
EnricoPallazzo said:
Interesting that some people focus on the police crimes and violence. Others focus on the looters/criminals arson and mass beatings of innocent people. Just saw a video of like 10 guys beating an elderly lady which was trying to peacefully defend her business. We definitely live in a divided society. I wonder how many will have to die on both sides until this ends.

I feel like this is ignoring how many have already died through police brutality and had their lives ruined through racial profiling, false imprisonment or unfair sentencing.

The difference between focus is really just highlighting what outcome people are looking for. It feels completely vapid to focus energy on looters and criminals who the justice system is keen on cracking down on anyway. What are you achieving? If the police got their hands on those people they would be thrown in jail without a second thought. The focus should be the attention that will bring about change.

Focus on the institution which is proving itself beyond the law, where officers routinely falsify accounts which are then debunked by footage and they still get let free.

And as of yet I don't believe anyone has died through the action of protestors. Only a drive by shooting (targeting protestors) and another shooting which hasn't been connected with the protest itself. 

So it's a matter a vengeance? Once we have compensated for all lives and imprisonment of the past then it's going to be alright?

And since we had only a few beatings of people till they are almost dead and even elderly people being beaten by a mob then it's ok? 

Anyway, discussing with someone so radical and close minded like you will lead to nowhere. As I said its a divided society, each one picking their sides in the discussion. I hope all the looting and crimes you are defending helps the black community to achieve something at least and not only serve as a tool for white people play politics.



KiigelHeart said:
Otter said:

Police are more focused on the peaceful protests then they are the riot zones, and they often escalate the scenarios in the peaceful protests.

But I get your focus but if you set that as the criteria, the protests will always collapse because police do not distinguish between the peaceful and none peaceful. Us focusing on the riots/looting is simply futile. 

Watch at the end when they arrest the man for literally nothing and the majority of footage on twitter is of police turning peaceful protests violent. 

I think the right to protest is important. And I also think it's important that everyone's safe during protests. I don't think protests will always collapse, but surely you can see there's riots escalating in many places atm. It's unfortunately not an ideal time for peaceful protest anymore and police will see gunpowder kegs everywhere. It would be ideal if people undetstood this.

Here's an article on that video. 

https://www.live5news.com/2020/05/31/charleston-police-begin-making-arrests-marion-square/

Protesters were told to leave but they didn't. I like the stuff that guy is saying but even he should understand that's not the time and place for discussion. He was most likely identified as a leader or agitator and thus arrested. 

You really shouldn't blindly buy the narrative some twitter posters are painting. Imagine if the police used short clips with no context to paint a picture of certain events or groups of people..

But this just represents a moving of the goalposts. The grand implication behind many of the comments I've been seeing is "just protest peacefully and everybody will support you". That clearly doesn't represent reality. These people were protesting peacefully, but no, it isn't just "protest peacefully", it is "protest peacefully where and when we allow you to". That stops being protest at that point and becomes something more akin to controlled opposition.

Because that is the true goal of many of those who are telling the victims of systematic injustice how to protest. The goalposts will continue to move until they can stay comfortable in their ignorance, with the protests suitably constrained and out of view.



KiigelHeart said:
Otter said:

Police are more focused on the peaceful protests then they are the riot zones, and they often escalate the scenarios in the peaceful protests.

But I get your focus but if you set that as the criteria, the protests will always collapse because police do not distinguish between the peaceful and none peaceful. Us focusing on the riots/looting is simply futile. 

Watch at the end when they arrest the man for literally nothing and the majority of footage on twitter is of police turning peaceful protests violent. 

I think the right to protest is important. And I also think it's important that everyone's safe during protests. I don't think protests will always collapse, but surely you can see there's riots escalating in many places atm. It's unfortunately not an ideal time for peaceful protest anymore and police will see gunpowder kegs everywhere. It would be ideal if people undetstood this.

Here's an article on that video. 

https://www.live5news.com/2020/05/31/charleston-police-begin-making-arrests-marion-square/

Protesters were told to leave but they didn't. I like the stuff that guy is saying but even he should understand that's not the time and place for discussion. He was most likely identified as a leader or agitator and thus arrested. 

You really shouldn't blindly buy the narrative some twitter posters are painting. Imagine if the police used short clips with no context to paint a picture of certain events or groups of people..

People who peacefully protest also get arrested.  Some do understand that they are a disruption and they also become a disruption on purpose because if they do not effect anything then they can be easily ignored.  You can see a lot of this happening during Dr. King days and in a lot of his speeches.  The aim of any protest is to be heard but also to force confrontation on the issues.  If you do not than what usually happen is that people will just ignore it and move on.



sundin13 said:
KiigelHeart said:

I think the right to protest is important. And I also think it's important that everyone's safe during protests. I don't think protests will always collapse, but surely you can see there's riots escalating in many places atm. It's unfortunately not an ideal time for peaceful protest anymore and police will see gunpowder kegs everywhere. It would be ideal if people undetstood this.

Here's an article on that video. 

https://www.live5news.com/2020/05/31/charleston-police-begin-making-arrests-marion-square/

Protesters were told to leave but they didn't. I like the stuff that guy is saying but even he should understand that's not the time and place for discussion. He was most likely identified as a leader or agitator and thus arrested. 

You really shouldn't blindly buy the narrative some twitter posters are painting. Imagine if the police used short clips with no context to paint a picture of certain events or groups of people..

But this just represents a moving of the goalposts. The grand implication behind many of the comments I've been seeing is "just protest peacefully and everybody will support you". That clearly doesn't represent reality. These people were protesting peacefully, but no, it isn't just "protest peacefully", it is "protest peacefully where and when we allow you to". That stops being protest at that point and becomes something more akin to controlled opposition.

Because that is the true goal of many of those who are telling the victims of systematic injustice how to protest. The goalposts will continue to move until they can stay comfortable in their ignorance, with the protests suitably constrained and out of view.

A valid concern but things are escalating in many places already. And according to the article I posted there was already unrest in the area. And there are peaceful protests everywhere and we've seem examples of police marching along protestors. So I'm pretty sure without these riots police wouldn't be controlling protests like this. I could be wrong though. 



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KiigelHeart said:
sundin13 said:

But this just represents a moving of the goalposts. The grand implication behind many of the comments I've been seeing is "just protest peacefully and everybody will support you". That clearly doesn't represent reality. These people were protesting peacefully, but no, it isn't just "protest peacefully", it is "protest peacefully where and when we allow you to". That stops being protest at that point and becomes something more akin to controlled opposition.

Because that is the true goal of many of those who are telling the victims of systematic injustice how to protest. The goalposts will continue to move until they can stay comfortable in their ignorance, with the protests suitably constrained and out of view.

A valid concern but things are escalating in many places already. And according to the article I posted there was already unrest in the area. And there are peaceful protests everywhere and we've seem examples of police marching along protestors. So I'm pretty sure without these riots police wouldn't be controlling protests like this. I could be wrong though. 

It is hard for me to not see this mindset as another tool of oppression. You may be correct in that if nobody had done anything violent, this wouldn't have happened. On the other hand, you may be incorrect. This certainly wouldn't be the first time that peaceful protesters were arrested, or worse.

But I do not believe that we can excuse this injustice by pointing the finger elsewhere. "Well someone else was violent, so we had to arrest this person who wasn't" isn't a very convincing argument. In circumstances such as this, there will always be a place to point the finger. If we allow this and sit idly by, we are placing all of the power in the hands of the very system that is at the heart of this injustice.



sundin13 said:
KiigelHeart said:

A valid concern but things are escalating in many places already. And according to the article I posted there was already unrest in the area. And there are peaceful protests everywhere and we've seem examples of police marching along protestors. So I'm pretty sure without these riots police wouldn't be controlling protests like this. I could be wrong though. 

It is hard for me to not see this mindset as another tool of oppression. You may be correct in that if nobody had done anything violent, this wouldn't have happened. On the other hand, you may be incorrect. This certainly wouldn't be the first time that peaceful protesters were arrested, or worse.

But I do not believe that we can excuse this injustice by pointing the finger elsewhere. "Well someone else was violent, so we had to arrest this person who wasn't" isn't a very convincing argument. In circumstances such as this, there will always be a place to point the finger. If we allow this and sit idly by, we are placing all of the power in the hands of the very system that is at the heart of this injustice.

A peaceful protest that doesn't cause discomfort will never move the needle especially when you are trying to change established system that works fine for the majority.  I totally agree with your point.  People have peacefully protested for decades but nothing comes of it unless the protest make enough of the general population uncomfortable or is disruptive enough so that the powers that be are willing to address it.



Trump is an basement tweeting, while all of this is happening. Cant believe people will vote for him.



coolbeans said:
Machiavellian said:

I have to say this speculation is the common feeling of most POC when it involves the police and the death of a civilian by their hands.  If you get a chance, check out the Philando Castile case where a cop shot a man in his car with his wife and daughter there.  The man told the cop he had a gun which is legal in that state.  The officer asked him for his license and when the man moved to get it, the cop freaked out stating do not go for your gun and Philando stated multiple times he is not reaching for his gun.  Anyway the point is that he was shot to death and the officer after acquitted of all charges.  Just for context this also happened in Minnesota so you can expect that POC probably were feeling not justice would be serve in this situation.

Then that popular sentiment (as you claim) is based on emotional frustration & ignorance of these proceedings.  Now while the Floyd video footage does speed up the amount of information needed for a charge, previous high-profile cases ought to have taught us that this process can be more precarious.  Another example: George Zimmerman didn't walk free b/c the state thought he was totally in the right but b/c he was overcharged.  

As for Philando Castile, there's a bit more to it.  For one, the latino officer Jeronimo Yanez and his partner pulled over Castile's car based on a BOLO (Be On Look Out) for a robbery that occurred a few days prior.  So, already we're dealing with a more precarious situation where an armed robbery suspect admits to having a gun in the car, claims he has a permit (though I don't believe it was filed under that county) that's not in his hands, and he's digging around for something to show proof.  Even in the video Yanez is yelling something like "I told you not to go for it!"  This speaks to a more complex issue: expecting a manslaughter charge against an officer who's been trained to escalate force to avoid potential bodily harm.  

With that out of the way, I was speaking more to the procedural aspect of charging an officer versus the result of a conviction.  An even closer example that comes to mind from Minneapolis: a POC police officer shot & killed white Justine Damond (who actually called 911 b/c of a potential sexual assault happening).  It took roughly 8 months after the incident to arrest/charge officer Noor despite having the testimony of his partner.  Granted, both body cams were turned off so there's no direct video footage.  So, why did it take that long?  Being thorough in the investigation and diving into state law seems to suggest a greater likelihood of conviction.  Which I believe is why the other 3 officers haven't been charged yet.

A bunch of people taking to the streets, a few burning businesses along the way, wasn't the sole inspiration for charging this guy.  The claim simply doesn't conform to reality.

There is no ignorance of the proceedings, the issue is the proceedings is also the part of the problem.  Taken months to even do the investigation on most of these situations is why there is so much frustration.  Think about it, they fired the 4 officers within days but it took today to say they will actually seek prosecution and charges after the riots.  Communication needs to be direct and swift to avoid misunderstandings and this is the result.  Not sure yet but turning off your camera should be instant firing.  It protect the police officer as much as it does the victim.

I am going to give you a hint how shit happens when Cops abuse their power.  First off, the busted tail light is an obvious clue.  This is used many times to pull people over without cause.  Next is the story change.  So it went from busted tail light to suspected BOLO.  Also there are procedures to a BOLO compared to a general traffic stop which this turned out to be.

Also lets be honest here, what armed robber is going to tell you they have a gun and then go for the gun.  Why say anything at all, it doesn't make any sense.

As for people rioting, well that in itself is another story.  It really only takes a few sparks to light that fire and they all do not have to have the same goal in mine.  You can believe other actors out there are more than willing to get things started with different motives.



Pemalite said:
tsogud said:

You are falsely equating a profession, with which you have a choice, with a racial group, with which you don't.

Not exactly. Those are not my words taken within it's intended context.

tsogud said:

How can that make sense to you?? They chose to be a cop, they chose to take and follow an oath to protect the citizens of their country not murder them, they chose to stay silent and standby while someone was getting murdered.

And the counter protests CHOSE to pillage, rape, destroy in retaliation. They CHOSE to do that as well.

I am criticizing BOTH sides for their childish bullshit, don't paint me out to be someone Pro-Police or Pro-African American, I am neither.
I don't have a side in this. At. All.

tsogud said:

Their badge comes off at the end of their shift or when they quit or get fired, but black people cannot take off their skin when they're tired of the injustices. They are themselves 24/7 and because of that they're callously targeted by an oppressive system day in and day out. How can you seriously equate the two and treat it as if they don't have any major difference??

Not exactly. At the end of my shift, I take off my firefighter uniform, I take off my badge.
But I am still a firefighter with certain community expectations and obligations.

There was a big issue here recently in Australia when a Police officer stoned a wombat to death, that police officer was out of uniform, didn't have his badge on... Yet was ridiculed heavily for being a "police officer" that brutally murdered an animal.

Just because you take your uniform off, doesn't mean the expectations stop for certain codes of conducts.

tsogud said:

We need major criminal justice reform in America and defunding of the police across the board to ever hope to stop the problem of police brutality that's been going on for decades. The system is broken and has been broken for far too long.

Yes you do. And is EXACTLY what I am proposing if you had bothered to read before jumping the gun.

tsogud said:

In our constitution it says: "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."

With all due respect to you, your nation and it's peoples... I couldn't give two shits about the US constitution, it is irrelevant to me as an individual, what a piece of paper says or doesn't say, doesn't mean it is ethically correct or right.

tsogud said:

The current system of governance has never appropriately and fairly secured these unalienable rights for black people in this country. EVERY. SINGLE. INSTITUTION. Whether it's housing, education, the crimal justice system, etc. has systematically, overtly and covertly, targeted black and brown people in America for centuries. Until there's justice there can never truly be any peace.

There is historical precedence for certain demographics to be treated unfairly across the planet, but again... There is a right and wrong way to go about things, delving into violence where people are loosing their livelihoods, people are being beaten and raped... Is not okay, was never okay and should not be condoned just because it's a "protest".

Protest the right way, not the violent way.

KLAMarine said:

"As for the second bit, maybe if this wasn't a problem that had been going on for generations I would be able to agree with you. I would like it if people protested the "right" way, however, we have largely seen that protesting the "right" way hasn't worked."

>The LA riots of the 90s didn't seem to do a thing to prevent Floyd's death either. Maybe rioting and looting isn't the way either?

Demonstrations are generally seen as a democratic right in all free nations and should be defended and protected, but there is simply a line you don't cross... And that line is when it starts to impact on innocent individuals that have nothing to do with it.

tsogud said:

No. That's not the point because he would have said that. He used specific words like "equally dangerous" to describe painting all people of a certain profession one way to being racist. They're not the same thing at all.

And that's not even the issue or concern I raised. So if that is his point then he's attacking a straw man because in nowhere in my posts did I paint all cops with the same brush. The problem I was talking about is the system of governance and the institution itself in combination with America's systematic racism is what leads to the kind of police brutality we see.

Wrong. That is exactly the point.

People need to be "punished" for doing the wrong thing, not punish entire demographic for the actions of a few.

Not all police officers hate, beat, murder African Americans.
And not all African Americans are out on the streets destroying life, property and the environment.

We need to stop painting entire groups with the same colour of brush, regardless of what we call them, that is my point, that is my position.

And you are arguing against that? Common.

Then you're being hypocritical because being queer you should realize that Pride started, not as a parade, but as a riot. A black trans woman threw the first brick at Stonewall. In your context that shouldn't have happened and she should've been punished because she broke the law. At least make it make sense.

If you don't give a shit about the US then why are you spewing your useless bs against protests against racism. Why are you telling black Americans how to behave if you don't give a shit?

You were falsely equating a profession with race. My issue is not against your stance that we shouldn't paint all people with the same brush, I agree with that. My issue is you equating a profession with race. They are not the same demographic classification. Race is a protected status and something you can't change, a profession isn't protected and is something you can change. You aren't born a police officer. You're original statement and subsequent defences on that stance are foolish.

While black people are being brutalized by police and protesting for their right to live as they have a duty to as stated in our constitution, you choose to be silent and neutral in their fight. As such you are complicit as well as the police officers who standby and do nothing. Your silence results in violence.