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Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Will the Switch ever get a Direct competitor?

Bofferbrauer2 said:

1. You are only counting rich countries there. In those countries, you're right, that shouldn't be a problem, except maybe some rare cases. However, countries outside of the top 20-30 richest countries do have less developed infrastructure, and thus much worse conditions for game streaming, both due to data limitations, but also ping.

2. Yeah, yeah, I could see that myself with Playstation Now - not. Under 8Mbps the visual quality was more at PSP level. Thankfully, I had 30Mbit which made PS3 games at least look like PS3 games, but with the 8Mbps at my dad's place it took a very serious visual hit, and that just wasn't worth it for me. Also, keep in mind that the 5mbps (which in Sony's own terms need to be rock-solid and rather suggest up to 12mbps to make sure) and 3GB/h Sony publicized for Playstation Now is just enough for 720p30. 1080p is twice as big as 720p,which means 1080p60 would at least need 4 times as much bandwith and data so 20mbps and 12GB/h for 1080p60

3. Prices will get cheaper, but certainly not as fast as you seem to think. It took forever to get high data cap plans with LTE and these are unpayable as you can see yourself.

I also checked what the prices would be in Germany (Telekom), Luxembourg (Tango), France (Orange) and found that they are wildly different. Telekom has an unlimited Data subscription plan... but that's needed since the next-lower one only gives 10GB. Tango doesn't have any unlimited data plan and even their biggest one is capped at 44GB (free wifi is relatively commonplace in the city of Luxembourg, but if you live in outside the city, you're pretty much out of luck here). Orange is pretty good and cheap, but not unlimited. Just to show you that plans like the ones you posted are not universal in the industrial world.

1. Depends on what you mean by 'rich'. Latency isn't much of an issue and I don't think it'll ever be an issue unless you're streaming across different continents. Ping would only become a profound issue in real time competitive modes ... 

2. The Switch's native display is 720p and for the most part 5 Mbps just works according to when DF tested PS Now using PS3 games but comparing image quality to PSP games is very harsh when they are identifiably lacking with tons of low resolution textures and less complex meshes. Sure PS Now isn't going to win any image quality awards but even I can tell the difference between compression and being a generation behind in graphics technology. Even Nvidia, recommends no more than 7 Mbps for their GameStream app ... 

3. Well soon it's going to become a reality because the advent of decommissioning 2G and 3G networks is upon us so there's absolutely nowhere else to go when much more spectrum is going to be freed up for 5G/LTE networks ... 

Orange is fine with a 150GB plan which is a shit ton of data more than what most people could use remotely even for streaming ... 

zorg1000 said:

1. It could be better but it's not so kind of a moot point.

2. ~2gb/hr for a passable experience. So if someone plays for 2hrs/day on average that's 120gb a month for a passable (not great) experience. You just said that Verizon/Sprint offer 75-100gb unthrottled so before factoring in other things that use data, people will go over their limit every month?

1. It probably is ? There's quite a few countries that offer better data plans than the US such as Germany, France, UK, Italy, Netherlands, Sweden, Hungary, Denmark, Finland and Taiwan but this does not even count in Singapore where WiFi coverage is abundant to the point where no one needs a SIM card for data. I have yet to also touch upon pocket WiFi devices also in which Japan or other countries are as viable options as well ... 

2. That'd be 2 hours of *remote* play and most people can cope with less than 5GB of data per month without doing any intense video streaming so by not using data at a higher rate you run the risk of underutilizing your allotted data capacity anyway by not doing streaming ... (wasting time on browsing/surfing or texting means you're not going to have a lot of time to use data) 



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fatslob-:O said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

1. You are only counting rich countries there. In those countries, you're right, that shouldn't be a problem, except maybe some rare cases. However, countries outside of the top 20-30 richest countries do have less developed infrastructure, and thus much worse conditions for game streaming, both due to data limitations, but also ping.

2. Yeah, yeah, I could see that myself with Playstation Now - not. Under 8Mbps the visual quality was more at PSP level. Thankfully, I had 30Mbit which made PS3 games at least look like PS3 games, but with the 8Mbps at my dad's place it took a very serious visual hit, and that just wasn't worth it for me. Also, keep in mind that the 5mbps (which in Sony's own terms need to be rock-solid and rather suggest up to 12mbps to make sure) and 3GB/h Sony publicized for Playstation Now is just enough for 720p30. 1080p is twice as big as 720p,which means 1080p60 would at least need 4 times as much bandwith and data so 20mbps and 12GB/h for 1080p60

3. Prices will get cheaper, but certainly not as fast as you seem to think. It took forever to get high data cap plans with LTE and these are unpayable as you can see yourself.

I also checked what the prices would be in Germany (Telekom), Luxembourg (Tango), France (Orange) and found that they are wildly different. Telekom has an unlimited Data subscription plan... but that's needed since the next-lower one only gives 10GB. Tango doesn't have any unlimited data plan and even their biggest one is capped at 44GB (free wifi is relatively commonplace in the city of Luxembourg, but if you live in outside the city, you're pretty much out of luck here). Orange is pretty good and cheap, but not unlimited. Just to show you that plans like the ones you posted are not universal in the industrial world.

1. Depends on what you mean by 'rich'. Latency isn't much of an issue and I don't think it'll ever be an issue unless you're streaming across different continents. Ping would only become a profound issue in real time competitive modes ... 

2. The Switch's native display is 720p and for the most part 5 Mbps just works according to when DF tested PS Now using PS3 games but comparing image quality to PSP games is very harsh when they are identifiably lacking with tons of low resolution textures and less complex meshes. Sure PS Now isn't going to win any image quality awards but even I can tell the difference between compression and being a generation behind in graphics technology. Even Nvidia, recommends no more than 7 Mbps for their GameStream app ... 

3. Well soon it's going to become a reality because the advent of decommissioning 2G and 3G networks is upon us so there's absolutely nowhere else to go when much more spectrum is going to be freed up for 5G/LTE networks ... 

Orange is fine with a 150GB plan which is a shit ton of data more than what most people could use remotely even for streaming ... 

1. With rich I meant G20 plus some extras. @bolded: Yes, but there's an easier word for that: multiplayer. As in, every multiplayer is either coop or competitive, and with coop everybody gets dragged down to the slowest in the bunch, so these will get affected by lags too.

2. I have a comparison made by the German magazine C'T (stands for Computer&Technology, and they're very profound and thorough in these, so much that you see them in every single IT department in German-speaking countries) which had the same scene at 5Mbps and and 50mbps, and the difference is really night and day. Wish I could upload images to the forums directly so I could show it to you.

3. Why are you so locked up on 2 and 3G? I haven't been connected to anything less than 4 G in the last 2.5 years in Luxembourg, yet as you can see you don't get much data in the subscriptions there. Guess why? Because the deactivation of 2 and 3G doesn't do squat. 5G will probably bring  more data, but it will take years until we'll have full coverage with 5G

Yes, orange is quite good in that regard, but with streaming that can still get eaten up very fast



Bofferbrauer2 said:
simek said:

Neither Ninteno nor Sony have such opportunities to produce dedicated games for heanhelds and stationary consoles at the same time. Handhelds only make sense as an extension of entertainment from stationary consoles. I absolutely agree with you about sd cards. They must be ordinary cheap sd cards. This time it is not about selling cards and other stupid things, but about gathering as many users in Playstation  Universe as possible and transfer them to Playstation Services (Playstation now) as soon as 5G becomes real.

Hence Nintendos Hybrid console. But that's a move Sony can't do without leaving the high-end to Microsoft, so they won't do it.

Would be crazy to leave the "high-end" console side where they have good presence and won steadily to go to the "portable/performance budgeted" market they don't know as much and even though done good once they got trashed in the sequence.

Only way they would make the switch competitor besides streaming would be they discovering a magical scaler that would make native code of PS5 to work on it. So you just either download the game and have it on the HDD of the portable or have it on PS5 transferred to a card you can put on the portable and need some sort of validation (like 24h check of the disc on the original PS5 logged on the same account or whoever they see possible)...

Anyway I don't think they will do it.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

DonFerrari said:
Bofferbrauer2 said:

Hence Nintendos Hybrid console. But that's a move Sony can't do without leaving the high-end to Microsoft, so they won't do it.

Would be crazy to leave the "high-end" console side where they have good presence and won steadily to go to the "portable/performance budgeted" market they don't know as much and even though done good once they got trashed in the sequence.

Only way they would make the switch competitor besides streaming would be they discovering a magical scaler that would make native code of PS5 to work on it. So you just either download the game and have it on the HDD of the portable or have it on PS5 transferred to a card you can put on the portable and need some sort of validation (like 24h check of the disc on the original PS5 logged on the same account or whoever they see possible)...

Anyway I don't think they will do it.

This is an interesting conundrum for Sony. My two cents is Sony can dismiss Microsoft at this point because MS no longer cares about console wars...that’s why the exclusives suck and that’s why we hear rumours of Xbox live coming to Nintendo.  the big picture items are cloud and mobility...cloud makes your hardware specs less relevant by delegating processing to servers, then again as som3 others have pointed out, cloud is slightly at odds with mobility until you get cheap enough data plans in all the major markets.

I think Son6 should tackle the hybrid market but obviously it will be a challenge.



couchmonkey said:
DonFerrari said:

Would be crazy to leave the "high-end" console side where they have good presence and won steadily to go to the "portable/performance budgeted" market they don't know as much and even though done good once they got trashed in the sequence.

Only way they would make the switch competitor besides streaming would be they discovering a magical scaler that would make native code of PS5 to work on it. So you just either download the game and have it on the HDD of the portable or have it on PS5 transferred to a card you can put on the portable and need some sort of validation (like 24h check of the disc on the original PS5 logged on the same account or whoever they see possible)...

Anyway I don't think they will do it.

This is an interesting conundrum for Sony. My two cents is Sony can dismiss Microsoft at this point because MS no longer cares about console wars...that’s why the exclusives suck and that’s why we hear rumours of Xbox live coming to Nintendo.  the big picture items are cloud and mobility...cloud makes your hardware specs less relevant by delegating processing to servers, then again as som3 others have pointed out, cloud is slightly at odds with mobility until you get cheap enough data plans in all the major markets.

I think Son6 should tackle the hybrid market but obviously it will be a challenge.

The less of a threat MS is to Sony the more reason for they to focus in that market with almost monopoly. Sure that can free up resources for they to really evaluate a streaming, but for hybrid if they have to forfeit power on the home console is a no go for they.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."

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couchmonkey said:

This is an interesting conundrum for Sony. My two cents is Sony can dismiss Microsoft at this point because MS no longer cares about console wars...that’s why the exclusives suck and that’s why we hear rumours of Xbox live coming to Nintendo.  the big picture items are cloud and mobility...cloud makes your hardware specs less relevant by delegating processing to servers, then again as som3 others have pointed out, cloud is slightly at odds with mobility until you get cheap enough data plans in all the major markets.

I think Son6 should tackle the hybrid market but obviously it will be a challenge.

The thing about Cloud and mobility is that although they'd be at odds in the current climate a platform will still benefit from having both, for example Cloud would still boost a device when it's used as a home console so regardless it's still a problem for Sony who are in the traditional space because the would be devices in the home having access to games that are above their specs. These titles would be on shaky ground the second the device becomes mobile yeah but then it'll have its own library to make up for that dismissing MS doesn't make the problem go away as you still need to deal with its implications, this is kind of what I touched on earlier in that if it happens it's an unorthodox situation that Sony have never dealt with and they tend to have trouble with such cases because the's no text book response to these situations you have to do something well out your comfort zone.

This is before we get to the rumours of Google making an entry into the industry themselves.



If there is one company that is able do the PS4 gaming on the go thats Sony. If we look at the patents Sony filled in the last year, there is alot about scalability and backwards compatibility. Especialy the last patent about the scalibility of the processor (using different number of cores to emulate legacy hardware). Maybe Im wrong but 7nm processor used in PS5 is perfect for mobile gaming (size).  Mayby tehere is something more then only PS5 compatibility. Imagine if we can get a ps4 games run natively on the go even in 720p. That would be a revolution.  Home gaming and mobile gaming united.  All we need is a bridge between PS4 and Cloud.

We have to forget about cloud gaming on the go for altleast 3-4 years (if you live in big citis). 5g implemantation starts this year, but it will be very limited. For Europe 2020 is the year that we gonna see 5g implementation in big citis (above 500.000 people).



simek said:

If there is one company that is able do the PS4 gaming on the go thats Sony. If we look at the patents Sony filled in the last year, there is alot about scalability and backwards compatibility. Especialy the last patent about the scalibility of the processor (using different number of cores to emulate legacy hardware). Maybe Im wrong but 7nm processor used in PS5 is perfect for mobile gaming (size).  Mayby tehere is something more then only PS5 compatibility. Imagine if we can get a ps4 games run natively on the go even in 720p. That would be a revolution.  Home gaming and mobile gaming united.  All we need is a bridge between PS4 and Cloud.

We have to forget about cloud gaming on the go for altleast 3-4 years (if you live in big citis). 5g implemantation starts this year, but it will be very limited. For Europe 2020 is the year that we gonna see 5g implementation in big citis (above 500.000 people).

It would indeed be impressive since irt would entail the first recorded use of time travel.

The tech for PS4 as a Switch-style device IS NOT available.  And it won't be available at a reasonable price for years.  Sony aren't Nvidia, they aren't doing cutting edge GPU and mobile SoC development.  They aren't going to magically produce this mythical device.

On top of that there are massive issues with regards to practicality.  



Nuvendil said:
simek said:

If there is one company that is able do the PS4 gaming on the go thats Sony. If we look at the patents Sony filled in the last year, there is alot about scalability and backwards compatibility. Especialy the last patent about the scalibility of the processor (using different number of cores to emulate legacy hardware). Maybe Im wrong but 7nm processor used in PS5 is perfect for mobile gaming (size).  Mayby tehere is something more then only PS5 compatibility. Imagine if we can get a ps4 games run natively on the go even in 720p. That would be a revolution.  Home gaming and mobile gaming united.  All we need is a bridge between PS4 and Cloud.

We have to forget about cloud gaming on the go for altleast 3-4 years (if you live in big citis). 5g implemantation starts this year, but it will be very limited. For Europe 2020 is the year that we gonna see 5g implementation in big citis (above 500.000 people).

It would indeed be impressive since irt would entail the first recorded use of time travel.

The tech for PS4 as a Switch-style device IS NOT available.  And it won't be available at a reasonable price for years.  Sony aren't Nvidia, they aren't doing cutting edge GPU and mobile SoC development.  They aren't going to magically produce this mythical device.

On top of that there are massive issues with regards to practicality.  

Please, don't kill my dream. So time travel is the way to go. Man i miss Crazy Ken. He is the only person that Can do the time travel. With Ken, gaming bussines was so much more Fun. Maybe the time travel tech is  still inside the cell waiting to be discovered.



Wyrdness said:
couchmonkey said:

This is an interesting conundrum for Sony. My two cents is Sony can dismiss Microsoft at this point because MS no longer cares about console wars...that’s why the exclusives suck and that’s why we hear rumours of Xbox live coming to Nintendo.  the big picture items are cloud and mobility...cloud makes your hardware specs less relevant by delegating processing to servers, then again as som3 others have pointed out, cloud is slightly at odds with mobility until you get cheap enough data plans in all the major markets.

I think Son6 should tackle the hybrid market but obviously it will be a challenge.

The thing about Cloud and mobility is that although they'd be at odds in the current climate a platform will still benefit from having both, for example Cloud would still boost a device when it's used as a home console so regardless it's still a problem for Sony who are in the traditional space because the would be devices in the home having access to games that are above their specs. These titles would be on shaky ground the second the device becomes mobile yeah but then it'll have its own library to make up for that dismissing MS doesn't make the problem go away as you still need to deal with its implications, this is kind of what I touched on earlier in that if it happens it's an unorthodox situation that Sony have never dealt with and they tend to have trouble with such cases because the's no text book response to these situations you have to do something well out your comfort zone.

This is before we get to the rumours of Google making an entry into the industry themselves.

It's more likely that we see streaming only than cloud improving the local HW. This have been a large discussion on forum when MS was talking about 3x the power of X1 using cloud but never released. At the same time we had PSNow increasing in use.



duduspace11 "Well, since we are estimating costs, Pokemon Red/Blue did cost Nintendo about $50m to make back in 1996"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=8808363

Mr Puggsly: "Hehe, I said good profit. You said big profit. Frankly, not losing money is what I meant by good. Don't get hung up on semantics"

http://gamrconnect.vgchartz.com/post.php?id=9008994

Azzanation: "PS5 wouldn't sold out at launch without scalpers."