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Switch TFLOPS : 1,024 ? 0,79 ? 0,393 ?

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Mr Puggsly said:

I just think the biggest changes have been in graphics while game design has hit a walt

Yeah, to be honest I kinda feel like gameplay design hasn't really progressed much since about 2009.



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Mr Puggsly said:
Nate4Drake said:

What do you mean for "average Game" ?  

 What I noticed going from 7th Gen to 8th Gen is an increase in scale, more draw distance, far more geometry, better textures, lighting, IQ, everything, physics/animations, effects, in those games where developers have put some serious effort; and I think you cannot expect more than this.

 Killzone Shadow Fall, even though it was not the game I was expecting, showed immediately a big jump in scale, in the graphics department, effects, IQ.  Not a game changer of course, as it was just a Launch title.  But what about Uncharted4 and God of War ? Talking about the latter, it completely blows me away, on PRO even more.

 Then we have many other games that don't show much of an improvement over last gen, apart from prettier graphics and more modern mechanics, but this happens on any system of any gen, looks like you discovered the warm water...

 How many remakes, rehash of games we have already seen millions of time from Nintendo, which plays and feels like Nintendo64 games with just a graphics and little "mechanics" update ?? But still, we have other very good games like Super Mario Odyssey and Zelda which showed much more than just an increase of numbers of enemies, graphics and prettier textures.   This concerns every hardware of any generation compared to any other hardware of the previous generation, and don't expect the "Next Gen Factor" on average games, where for a reason or another, devs didn't put enough effort because of lack of resources/time/talent/etc.

""Nintendo seems to do magic with inferior specs but they're just being efficient with limited power. Kinda like how developers used to approach 7th gen hardware.""

Nintendo is not the only one able to do "magic" with its own hardware, just they have less resources to work with.  GOW and Forza Motosport4 say HI :)

I completely agree with stuff I bolded, but that really isn't gameplay improvements per se. Hence, I'm not necessarily enjoying games more because the graphics are better.

Uncharted 4 is larger scale than previous games in the series, but does that mean Uncharted on PS3 couldn't have been larger scale? I mean we have the BF3 and 4 on 7th gen, those are large scale with vehicles, etc. I think Uncharted 4 is a great looking game but not ambitious in the gameplay department.

God of War is another example of a great looking game but not what I would a next gen experience or whatever. Its a relatively linear action game with cool graphics.

Maybe I've just played too many game and become jaded. Maybe I had unrealistic expectations of what developers were going to do with new specs. I mean I still enjoy games, I just think the biggest changes have been in graphics while game design has hit a wall.

Maybe that's partly why battle royal games are so incredibly popular at the moment, that's a unique experience we didn't have last gen.

I understand what you mean, and even though everything is improving Gen by Gen, what really makes the jump evident is the Graphics department, with bigger scale, maps, more complex environment, etc.   I would like to see much more enhancement in the game-play mechanics, interactions, system collision, animations and AI most of all.  Give me a break if I'm wrong, but I feel like AI is the least improved factor going from gen to gen.

 We need far better CPUs in the next Gen consoles in order to see the improvements is such departements;  also our expectations play a big rule, and for a massive jump in physics, animations, system collision and interactions, much advanced AI and gameplay mechanics, how much more CPU power we need? 4X, 5X...I'm not a super tech guy, maybe the ones with much better understandings may answer.

Last edited by Nate4Drake - on 24 January 2019

”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

Harriet Tubman.

Nate4Drake said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I completely agree with stuff I bolded, but that really isn't gameplay improvements per se. Hence, I'm not necessarily enjoying games more because the graphics are better.

Uncharted 4 is larger scale than previous games in the series, but does that mean Uncharted on PS3 couldn't have been larger scale? I mean we have the BF3 and 4 on 7th gen, those are large scale with vehicles, etc. I think Uncharted 4 is a great looking game but not ambitious in the gameplay department.

God of War is another example of a great looking game but not what I would a next gen experience or whatever. Its a relatively linear action game with cool graphics.

Maybe I've just played too many game and become jaded. Maybe I had unrealistic expectations of what developers were going to do with new specs. I mean I still enjoy games, I just think the biggest changes have been in graphics while game design has hit a wall.

Maybe that's partly why battle royal games are so incredibly popular at the moment, that's a unique experience we didn't have last gen.

I understand what you mean, and even though everything is improving Gen by Gen, what really makes the jump evident is the Graphics department, with bigger scale, maps, more complex environment, etc.   I would like to see much more enhancement in the game-play mechanics, interactions, system collision, animations and AI most of all.  Give me a break if I'm wrong, but I feel like AI is the least improved factor going from gen to gen.

 We need far better CPUs in the next Gen consoles in order to see the improvements is such departements;  also our expectations play a big rule, and for a massive jump in physics, animations, system collision and interactions, much advanced AI and gameplay mechanics, how much more CPU power we need? 4X, 5X...I'm not a super tech guy, maybe the ones with much better understandings may answer.

Starting from the 3rd gen where consoles really became notable, we saw huge leaps with each gen. Not just in graphics but game design. The 8th gen is the first time I haven't felt that leap per se.

If the problem was really CPU related I genuinely feel like some developers would be making cutting edge gaming experiences on PC. I mean Steam has a big enough audience to support exclusive experiences like that. I think its more game design issue than lack of power.

Either way, I'm still enjoying games but the wow factor hasn't been there in a long time outside of visual stuff.



Recently Completed
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for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

curl-6 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I just think the biggest changes have been in graphics while game design has hit a walt

Yeah, to be honest I kinda feel like gameplay design hasn't really progressed much since about 2009.

I also think it depends on what genre we're talking about. I mean some genres arguably haven't progressed much prior to that.



Recently Completed
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for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)

GProgrammer said:
Mr Puggsly said:

I could argue Mario Kart 8 is more impressive than anything on PS3. I mean 1080p/60 fps with very polished visuals.

You could argue that, but you will look very foolish as Mario Kart 8 on the Switch runs 720p maximum docked

See digital foundry for details

At the moment the PS3 does have the better looking games, though thats due in large part to the switch only being out just over 2 years, at the end of its life will the Switch have anything that can match last of us? debatable we will have to see in a few years time.

Tthe switchs GPU is better but the CPU is worse, it also has on 4GB memory vs 8GB. Will a full GTA5 come out on switch to match PS3, debatable without compromises due to its weaker CPU & less memory

What? PS3 RAM is 512MB only, Wii U is 2GB, Switch is 4GB



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Mr Puggsly said:
Nate4Drake said:

I understand what you mean, and even though everything is improving Gen by Gen, what really makes the jump evident is the Graphics department, with bigger scale, maps, more complex environment, etc.   I would like to see much more enhancement in the game-play mechanics, interactions, system collision, animations and AI most of all.  Give me a break if I'm wrong, but I feel like AI is the least improved factor going from gen to gen.

 We need far better CPUs in the next Gen consoles in order to see the improvements is such departements;  also our expectations play a big rule, and for a massive jump in physics, animations, system collision and interactions, much advanced AI and gameplay mechanics, how much more CPU power we need? 4X, 5X...I'm not a super tech guy, maybe the ones with much better understandings may answer.

Starting from the 3rd gen where consoles really became notable, we saw huge leaps with each gen. Not just in graphics but game design. The 8th gen is the first time I haven't felt that leap per se.

If the problem was really CPU related I genuinely feel like some developers would be making cutting edge gaming experiences on PC. I mean Steam has a big enough audience to support exclusive experiences like that. I think its more game design issue than lack of power.

Either way, I'm still enjoying games but the wow factor hasn't been there in a long time outside of visual stuff.

I'm taking as examples Sony consoles simply because I have more experience about them and played the best games on all Playstation; the biggest jump I noticed have been from PSX to PS2 and from PS2 to PS3 in terms of Gameplay mechanics, physics, animations, system collision, AI. This is really CPU stuff, and if you look respectively at their CPU, well, it's so evident the huge leap in performance going from PSX to PS2 and from PS2 to PS3 :

  PSX CPU : MIPS R3000A-compatible 32-bit RISC CPU MIPS R3051 with 5 KB L1 cache, running at 33.8688 MHz.

  Operating performance: 30 MIPS

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS2 CPU: MIPS III R5900-based "Emotion Engine", clocked at 294.912 MHz (299 MHz on newer versions), with 128-bit SIMD capabilities.

Floating point performance: 6.2 GFLOPS (single precision 32-bit floating point)

FPU 0.64 GFLOPS

VU0 2.44 GFLOPS 

VU1 3.08 GFLOPS (Including internal 0.64 GFLOPS EFU)

Tri-strip geometric transformation (VU0+VU1): 150 million vertices per second

3D CG geometric transformation with raw 3D perspective operations (VU0+VU1): 66-80+ million vertices per second

3D CG geometric transformations at peak bones/movements/effects (textures)/lights (VU0+VU1, parallel or series): 15–20 million vertices per second

Lighting: 38 million polygons/sec

Fog: 36 million polygons/sec

Curved surface generation (Bezier): 16 million polygons/sec

Image processing performance: 150 million Pixels/sec

Actual real-world polygons (per frame): 500-650k at 30 FPS, 250-325k at 60 FPS

Instructions per second: 6,000 MIPS (million instructions per second)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PS3 CPU : Cell microprocessor, which is made up of one 3.2 GHz PowerPC-based "Power Processing Element" (PPE) and six accessible Synergistic Processing Elements (SPEs). A seventh runs in a special mode and is dedicated to aspects of the OS and security, and an eighth is a spare to improve production yields. PlayStation 3's Cell CPU achieves a theoretical maximum of 230.4 GFLOPS in single precision floating point operations and up to 15 GFLOPS double precision.

The PS3 has 256 MB of Rambus XDR DRAM, clocked at CPU die speed.[1] The PPE has 64 KB L1 cache and 512 KB L2 cache, while the SPEs have 2 MB local memory (256 KB per SPE), connected by the Element Interconnect Bus (EIB) with up to 307.2 GB/s bandwidth.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Well, the difference in power is night and day, that's why the jump in the forementioned categories was bigger.

Last edited by Nate4Drake - on 24 January 2019

”Every great dream begins with a dreamer. Always remember, you have within you the strength, the patience, and the passion to reach for the stars to change the world.”

Harriet Tubman.

Mr Puggsly said:
curl-6 said:

Yeah, to be honest I kinda feel like gameplay design hasn't really progressed much since about 2009.

I also think it depends on what genre we're talking about. I mean some genres arguably haven't progressed much prior to that.

True that. 2009 basically saw the AAA blockbuster formula reach its modern form with the likes of Uncharted 2 and Modern Warfare 2, a formula that hasn't really progressed since.

HoangNhatAnh said:
GProgrammer said:

You could argue that, but you will look very foolish as Mario Kart 8 on the Switch runs 720p maximum docked

See digital foundry for details

At the moment the PS3 does have the better looking games, though thats due in large part to the switch only being out just over 2 years, at the end of its life will the Switch have anything that can match last of us? debatable we will have to see in a few years time.

Tthe switchs GPU is better but the CPU is worse, it also has on 4GB memory vs 8GB. Will a full GTA5 come out on switch to match PS3, debatable without compromises due to its weaker CPU & less memory

What? PS3 RAM is 512MB only, Wii U is 2GB, Switch is 4GB

Should be noted that in all 3 cases some RAM was locked away for the OS, so as far as what's available for games it's approximately 462MB for PS3, 1GB for Wii U, and 3GB for Switch.

Last edited by curl-6 - on 24 January 2019

Nate4Drake said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Starting from the 3rd gen where consoles really became notable, we saw huge leaps with each gen. Not just in graphics but game design. The 8th gen is the first time I haven't felt that leap per se.

If the problem was really CPU related I genuinely feel like some developers would be making cutting edge gaming experiences on PC. I mean Steam has a big enough audience to support exclusive experiences like that. I think its more game design issue than lack of power.

Either way, I'm still enjoying games but the wow factor hasn't been there in a long time outside of visual stuff.

I'm taking as examples Sony consoles simply because I have more experience about them and played the best games on all Playstation; the biggest jump I noticed have been from PSX to PS2 and from PS2 to PS3 in terms of Gameplay mechanics, physics, animations, system collision, AI. This is really CPU stuff, and if you look respectively at their CPU, well, it's so evident the huge leap in performance going from PSX to PS2 and from PS2 to PS3 :...

cut

Well, the difference in power is night and day, that's why the jump in the forementioned categories was bigger.

Well you're comparing platforms with limited potential with more modern specs, but game design also changed. Theoretically developers could even now work with the limited capabilities of the PS1 and create experiences unique to that platform.

I think you're confusing aspects that make games look better and actual gameplay/game design. In a nutshell, game don't really feel that different from the last gen, it just more refined in regard to visual quality. There are example that boosted player counts and enemy AIs, maybe the environments are more detailed, etc. Fundamentally the games still feel about the same though.



Recently Completed
Crackdown 3
for X1S/X1X (4/5) - Infinity Blade III - for iPad 4 (3/5) - Infinity Blade II - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Infinity Blade - for iPad 4 (4/5) - Wolfenstein: The Old Blood for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Origins for X1 (3/5) - Uncharted: Lost Legacy for PS4 (4/5) - EA UFC 3 for X1 (4/5) - Doom for X1 (4/5) - Titanfall 2 for X1 (4/5) - Super Mario 3D World for Wii U (4/5) - South Park: The Stick of Truth for X1 BC (4/5) - Call of Duty: WWII for X1 (4/5) -Wolfenstein II for X1 - (4/5) - Dead or Alive: Dimensions for 3DS (4/5) - Marvel vs Capcom: Infinite for X1 (3/5) - Halo Wars 2 for X1/PC (4/5) - Halo Wars: DE for X1 (4/5) - Tekken 7 for X1 (4/5) - Injustice 2 for X1 (4/5) - Yakuza 5 for PS3 (3/5) - Battlefield 1 (Campaign) for X1 (3/5) - Assassin's Creed: Syndicate for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: Infinite Warfare for X1 (4/5) - Call of Duty: MW Remastered for X1 (4/5) - Donkey Kong Country Returns for 3DS (4/5) - Forza Horizon 3 for X1 (5/5)