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Why did Jesus Christ sacrifice his self for you?

Forums - General Discussion - Why did Jesus Christ sacrifice his self for you?

Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

It's also pretty normal for poor people to become religious.

Poor people tend to also have sub-par education. - Correlation?

DélioPT said:

"Matthew 10:34 - Jesus wanted war."
The reasoning is that Jesus will eventually be something that some won't accept while others will. Thus, division will occur (intolerance).

That is your interpretation, which deviates from what it says in plain black and white in it's literal form.

DélioPT said:

" Jesus condemned entire cities to death and eternal torment because they don't care for his preaching. - Matthew 11:20"

No. "Then Jesus began to denounce the towns in which most of his miracles had been performed, because they did not repent."

What this means is very simple: There were those who repented and were saved and there were those who didn't repent, despite being given reasons to do so, and weren't saved. That's the basis of Christianity: either you follow the path salvation or you don't. But you can't complain after you willingly made the wrong choice.

No. It's very clear what it says.

Either way, even if your hypothesis was true, your God is still a cruel God for not simply saving everyone, but would rather large swathes of the population to suffer.

What is the point of your God offering free will if you aren't allowed to exercise it, but instead you have to conform and fall inline to it's abhorrent doctrine?

DélioPT said:

"Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. -  Matthew 10:21 - Families will be torn a part by Jesus."

You should read the rest:  "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me"
 

Still doesn't make it any better I am afraid. It just tacks on hatred as a side-effect.

DélioPT said:

"Jesus criticized the Jewish people for not murdering their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. - Mark 7:9"

He criticized this: "You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe[c] your own traditions!" and "Thus you nullify the word of God by your tradition that you have handed down. And you do many things like that."
The idea behind this was to show how the followed their own ideas and not the ones that God gave them, yet they acted as if they followed the latter.
  

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark+7-9&version=NIV

"You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to human traditions.”

And he continued, “You have a fine way of setting aside the commands of God in order to observe your own traditions!For Moses said, ‘Honor your father and mother,’ and, ‘Anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death.’" 

 

DélioPT said:

Just an advice, maybe you should rethink how you express yourself about other people's beliefs, lest you get a ban for no good reason.

  

 

I am literally copy-pasting verses from the Bible. - If what I have posted causes offense... You should probably change religions.
Feel free to whack that report button on any of my posts though.

At the end of the day, Jesus wasn't a nice, caring individual if the Bible, Torah and Quran are to be believed, the science-fiction claims where he performed various "miracles" are yet to be substantiated with any empirical evidence... And in-fact the Quran and Torah perspective on Jesus is actually different from the Bible.
And considering the Torah is the oldest of the Abrahamic faiths, shouldn't that be the one that takes priority?

"Either way, even if your hypothesis was true, your God is still a cruel God for not simply saving everyone, but would rather large swathes of the population to suffer. 
What is the point of your God offering free will if you aren't allowed to exercise it, but instead you have to conform and fall inline to it's abhorrent doctrine?"

God wants to save everyone. It's people who don't want to be saved.

If you can choose between being with God and not being with Him, how are you not exercising your free will? There's nothing left to choose from.

"the science-fiction claims where he performed various "miracles" are yet to be substantiated with any empirical evidence"
The science-fiction claims? Really? Way to show respect! :)

 

That's all i have to say.



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Can fictional characters sacrifice themselves for real people?

Pretty sure they can't.

It's a nice gesture, though; or at least it would be if not for the fact that the whole story is just a facade and is really an excuse to place judgement upon those who don't believe that particular fantasy as reality. And whether Jesus was real or not, he has no impact on my life outside of his ravenous fanclub.



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Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

It's also pretty normal for poor people to become religious.

Poor people tend to also have sub-par education. - Correlation?

What about the people who can clearly be considered intelligent but are poor because they are oppressed, or lazy, or disabled, etc? Why are some poor people less educated? Is it that they are a lost cause or are we, the intelligent one's, not smart enough to figure out how to get them a proper education by whatever means? How smart are we really then? How giving are we then? How could all these first world, less religious, advanced societies allow this to happen if we care so much about other people? Do we?



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

DélioPT said:

God wants to save everyone. It's people who don't want to be saved.

Your God hypothetically would have the power to save everyone regardless of their intrinsic beliefs of behavior. - Unless he doesn't? Then your God isn't all powerful.

DélioPT said:

If you can choose between being with God and not being with Him, how are you not exercising your free will? There's nothing left to choose from.

If your God was all powerful, there could be no hell. Everyone would go to the same place irrespective of belief.

People lacking in belief of your deity due to the lack of empirical evidence isn't the same as people choosing to go to Hell, remember that.

DélioPT said:

The science-fiction claims? Really? Way to show respect! :)

Welp. I meant "fiction" obviously didn't have enough coffee this morning. - Which by it's definition is something that is "Imaginary, untrue, invented events". - Which the claims in the Bible can fall under until sufficient empirical  evidence comes about.

EricHiggin said:
Pemalite said:

Poor people tend to also have sub-par education. - Correlation?

What about the people who can clearly be considered intelligent but are poor because they are oppressed, or lazy, or disabled, etc? Why are some poor people less educated? Is it that they are a lost cause or are we, the intelligent one's, not smart enough to figure out how to get them a proper education by whatever means? How smart are we really then? How giving are we then? How could all these first world, less religious, advanced societies allow this to happen if we care so much about other people? Do we?

There is of course always exceptions to the rule.

Poor people tend to be less educated, simply because they generally cannot afford better education. - That doesn't mean that they are intellectually impaired, they just haven't been given the appropriate opportunities in life to learn.

 



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DélioPT said:

"the science-fiction claims where he performed various "miracles" are yet to be substantiated with any empirical evidence"
The science-fiction claims? Really? Way to show respect! :)

I just want to touch on this briefly, because respect is an important issue to me.

People, generally, are worthy of respect, until they prove otherwise -- which is not an evaluation to be made lightly. It is important to extend the "benefit of the doubt," and when you run into someone who is wrong on a point (extending even unto their core belief system), it is best to assume that they have made honest errors, and are yet intelligent, good people, insofar as you are able.

However. There is a huge difference between showing respect to people and respecting the beliefs that they hold. I respect many Christians but I do not respect Christianity, which I do not consider merely "wrong," but on-balance destructive to human life and happiness.

"Hate the sin, love the sinner." Christians may deserve respect on a case-by-case basis, and as I said, the best default position is to extend that respect so long as you're able; but Christianity itself deserves no such thing.



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EricHiggin said:
vivster said:

But how does that hold up to the fact that the most prosperous nations are also among the most secular while the poorest nations are fairly religious?

Jesus was a human like all of us and had the same human flaws like we do. So yes, I can say about myself that I am at least quite similar to a human like Jesus.

Well in America for example, the left has seen the light and is making it super clear that the faithless white devils are destroying the world. If only we were more like the poorer religious nations, then everything would be set right. Seems ironic the much more religious rural Americans (in the south) are looked down upon by many, considering they are the majority who lay down their lives for a tonne of people, not just Americans, who will never be tied to them in any manner. I wonder why they are willing to do that, while so many other non religious Americans aren't? It's also pretty normal for poor people to become religious. When you have nothing what else are you going to do?

There is also the case that most people in prosperous nations, like the west, tend to believe in the overall rules and guidelines the society abides by, for the most part. The west is built on religious teachings and values. That may not be evident in today's world, which it's not for most, since people are more concerned about what's on the surface then what's underneath.

Can you turn water into wine without physically tampering with it? Physically heal people by simply touching them? I can't as a typical human, can you? If people had that kind of power, which let's assume can be used for good or bad depending on the person, how many of them would use it in the manner Jesus did, with vast restraint and for good?

It doesn't really matter where the values come from. Being nice to other humans is a logical conclusion for a society to thrive and has been underlined by multiple revolutions in history. The behavior is biological and can be observed in numerous species who don't have a concept of god. I don't have to thank clerics for humans employing common sense, especially when they're the ones with least of it.

I can't perform miracles and neither could Jesus, because he was a human. Last time I checked humans don't have magic powers. Humans today have the power to heal illness and help the poor and sick with technology and intricate social systems. In fact our capability to help human beings far outclasses those of Jesus,even if he had them, because we can apply them on a global scale. And we do. Every single day. People use their power to help others without any ties to religion or thinking of Jesus. Thank you, science and technology for doubling our life expectancy since the days of Jesus Christ. You know, that thing that Jesus wasn't able to do because he was just a human without any knowledge or technology.



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Pemalite said:
EricHiggin said:

What about the people who can clearly be considered intelligent but are poor because they are oppressed, or lazy, or disabled, etc? Why are some poor people less educated? Is it that they are a lost cause or are we, the intelligent one's, not smart enough to figure out how to get them a proper education by whatever means? How smart are we really then? How giving are we then? How could all these first world, less religious, advanced societies allow this to happen if we care so much about other people? Do we?

There is of course always exceptions to the rule.

Poor people tend to be less educated, simply because they generally cannot afford better education. - That doesn't mean that they are intellectually impaired, they just haven't been given the appropriate opportunities in life to learn.

Whose fault is that? Who has the capability to help these people? Why haven't they if it's the right thing to do?

vivster said:
EricHiggin said:

Well in America for example, the left has seen the light and is making it super clear that the faithless white devils are destroying the world. If only we were more like the poorer religious nations, then everything would be set right. Seems ironic the much more religious rural Americans (in the south) are looked down upon by many, considering they are the majority who lay down their lives for a tonne of people, not just Americans, who will never be tied to them in any manner. I wonder why they are willing to do that, while so many other non religious Americans aren't? It's also pretty normal for poor people to become religious. When you have nothing what else are you going to do?

There is also the case that most people in prosperous nations, like the west, tend to believe in the overall rules and guidelines the society abides by, for the most part. The west is built on religious teachings and values. That may not be evident in today's world, which it's not for most, since people are more concerned about what's on the surface then what's underneath.

Can you turn water into wine without physically tampering with it? Physically heal people by simply touching them? I can't as a typical human, can you? If people had that kind of power, which let's assume can be used for good or bad depending on the person, how many of them would use it in the manner Jesus did, with vast restraint and for good?

It doesn't really matter where the values come from. Being nice to other humans is a logical conclusion for a society to thrive and has been underlined by multiple revolutions in history. The behavior is biological and can be observed in numerous species who don't have a concept of god. I don't have to thank clerics for humans employing common sense, especially when they're the ones with least of it.

I can't perform miracles and neither could Jesus, because he was a human. Last time I checked humans don't have magic powers. Humans today have the power to heal illness and help the poor and sick with technology and intricate social systems. In fact our capability to help human beings far outclasses those of Jesus,even if he had them, because we can apply them on a global scale. And we do. Every single day. People use their power to help others without any ties to religion or thinking of Jesus. Thank you, science and technology for doubling our life expectancy since the days of Jesus Christ. You know, that thing that Jesus wasn't able to do because he was just a human without any knowledge or technology.

Nope. Being too nice will eventually get you 'mowed down' by someone else who doesn't care. Assuming we just haven't been able to weed out all the 'bad ones' just yet would be a poor conclusion. There's a reason disease and flu's etc don't just die and go away forever.

Jesus was God in human form, which is where his 'magic' powers came from. Thank you science and tech, for making people wait days in line, texting on their 'old' iPhone, waiting to buy the yearly super expensive new iPhone, that really doesn't make much of a difference, instead of better using that time and money to truly make a difference. 



The Canadian National Anthem According To Justin Trudeau

 

Oh planet Earth! The home of native lands, 
True social law, in all of us demand.
With cattle farts, we view sea rise,
Our North sinking slowly.
From far and snide, oh planet Earth, 
Our healthcare is yours free!
Science save our land, harnessing the breeze,
Oh planet Earth, smoke weed and ferment yeast.
Oh planet Earth, ell gee bee queue and tee.

EricHiggin said:
Pemalite said:

There is of course always exceptions to the rule.

Poor people tend to be less educated, simply because they generally cannot afford better education. - That doesn't mean that they are intellectually impaired, they just haven't been given the appropriate opportunities in life to learn.

Whose fault is that? Who has the capability to help these people? Why haven't they if it's the right thing to do?

Probably not enough thoughts and prayers.

...Jokes aside, it's a societal issue, usually because of poor economics, planning and funding. - It's a catastrophic issue in developing nations that's for sure.

EricHiggin said:

Jesus was God in human form, which is where his 'magic' powers came from.

That smells like an assertion. - Got evidence?
And if Jesus was a God, then he couldn't die anyway, thus making his sacrifice a useless affair.

 



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

EricHiggin said:
Pemalite said:

There is of course always exceptions to the rule.

Poor people tend to be less educated, simply because they generally cannot afford better education. - That doesn't mean that they are intellectually impaired, they just haven't been given the appropriate opportunities in life to learn.

Whose fault is that? Who has the capability to help these people? Why haven't they if it's the right thing to do?

vivster said:

It doesn't really matter where the values come from. Being nice to other humans is a logical conclusion for a society to thrive and has been underlined by multiple revolutions in history. The behavior is biological and can be observed in numerous species who don't have a concept of god. I don't have to thank clerics for humans employing common sense, especially when they're the ones with least of it.

I can't perform miracles and neither could Jesus, because he was a human. Last time I checked humans don't have magic powers. Humans today have the power to heal illness and help the poor and sick with technology and intricate social systems. In fact our capability to help human beings far outclasses those of Jesus,even if he had them, because we can apply them on a global scale. And we do. Every single day. People use their power to help others without any ties to religion or thinking of Jesus. Thank you, science and technology for doubling our life expectancy since the days of Jesus Christ. You know, that thing that Jesus wasn't able to do because he was just a human without any knowledge or technology.

Nope. Being too nice will eventually get you 'mowed down' by someone else who doesn't care. Assuming we just haven't been able to weed out all the 'bad ones' just yet would be a poor conclusion. There's a reason disease and flu's etc don't just die and go away forever.

Jesus was God in human form, which is where his 'magic' powers came from. Thank you science and tech, for making people wait days in line, texting on their 'old' iPhone, waiting to buy the yearly super expensive new iPhone, that really doesn't make much of a difference, instead of better using that time and money to truly make a difference. 

Seems like a silly argument. Don't you think that people going to church and tithing have wasted more of their time and money than the average person has on iphones?



...

EricHiggin said:
Pemalite said:

There is of course always exceptions to the rule.

Poor people tend to be less educated, simply because they generally cannot afford better education. - That doesn't mean that they are intellectually impaired, they just haven't been given the appropriate opportunities in life to learn.

Whose fault is that? Who has the capability to help these people? Why haven't they if it's the right thing to do?

vivster said:

It doesn't really matter where the values come from. Being nice to other humans is a logical conclusion for a society to thrive and has been underlined by multiple revolutions in history. The behavior is biological and can be observed in numerous species who don't have a concept of god. I don't have to thank clerics for humans employing common sense, especially when they're the ones with least of it.

I can't perform miracles and neither could Jesus, because he was a human. Last time I checked humans don't have magic powers. Humans today have the power to heal illness and help the poor and sick with technology and intricate social systems. In fact our capability to help human beings far outclasses those of Jesus,even if he had them, because we can apply them on a global scale. And we do. Every single day. People use their power to help others without any ties to religion or thinking of Jesus. Thank you, science and technology for doubling our life expectancy since the days of Jesus Christ. You know, that thing that Jesus wasn't able to do because he was just a human without any knowledge or technology.

Nope. Being too nice will eventually get you 'mowed down' by someone else who doesn't care. Assuming we just haven't been able to weed out all the 'bad ones' just yet would be a poor conclusion. There's a reason disease and flu's etc don't just die and go away forever.

Jesus was God in human form, which is where his 'magic' powers came from. Thank you science and tech, for making people wait days in line, texting on their 'old' iPhone, waiting to buy the yearly super expensive new iPhone, that really doesn't make much of a difference, instead of better using that time and money to truly make a difference. 

You should let humans decide for themselves if they prefer to fiddle with their iPhones or rather die of the plague in a ditch. I think it's highly offensive to human accomplishment to suggest that we're worse off today than we were in the past. But of course it's nothing new that the Church hates progress. Progress means humans no longer need the cheap and artificial comfort of religion anymore.

You're telling me that I cannot live a good life if I don't pretend that some magical entity is ruling over me? Offense taken.



If you demand respect or gratitude for your volunteer work, you're doing volunteering wrong.