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The best Original Xbox Box Mini device would actually just be a Xbox One S (or X)

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zorg1000 said:
Mr Puggsly said:

These are not just impulse purchase items. I mean $80-$100 is a good chunk of change to play old games. So they need to have appealing games to justify it.

You seem to think a X1S should be priced competitively with low spec box that just plays some built in retro games? Not gonna happen. Again, I am really suggesting a special edition X1S.

Sub-$100 is absolutely impulse purchase range for the average working adult in first world countries.

I do not think that and I have no idea how you came to that conclusion. I'm saying your idea will not work for the people that these classic systems cater to, which is nostalgic lapsed gamers.

Lapsed gamers are people who played games growing up but for one reason or another very seldomly play games (or quit altogether) as an adult. Many of these people still have a soft spot for the games of their childhood/teen years and will buy a cheap device to play a dozen or so of these old games they loved.

Since these people are not gamers anymore, the ability to play current generation games does not really do much, if anything, to add value so a $200 X1S that plays today's $60 games will not be as enticing as a $100 Xbox Classic with 20 pre-installed games.

 

With that said, I dont think a special edition X1S like you suggest is a bad idea, just that it shouldn't be used to replace classic consoles. Both options would be ideal.

I disagree, it has to be an impressive product to even justify $60. The NES classic did well because it had definitive games of that platform. A lesser library would not have succeeded in nearly the same way.

An OG Xbox device wouldn't be very impressive with lesser specs than a X1S. Especially if you wanted online features like accessing a store, improved resolutions, improved performance, etc. With that said, just push the current console for nostalgia reasons. Also, if you wanna play some classic Halo games online then Halo MCC.

Youre assuming many people buying these classic gaming devices are not gamers. Im sure thats some of the audience, but not an assumption I would make.

Also, the audience that grew up with OG Xbox is not the same as those who grew up with NES or SNES per se. Bear in mind the market grew and the average age of gamers became older.



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Mr Puggsly said:

An OG Xbox device wouldn't be very impressive with lesser specs than a X1S. Especially if you wanted online features like accessing a store, improved resolutions, improved performance, etc. With that said, just push the current console for nostalgia reasons. Also, if you wanna play some classic Halo games online then Halo MCC.

Lesser specifications doesn't mean you give up access to an online store, improved resolutions, improved performance. - They're original Xbox games, they can run on a toaster.
You could take the Xbox One S chipset and almost cut it in half and it will still be more than sufficient.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

An OG Xbox device wouldn't be very impressive with lesser specs than a X1S. Especially if you wanted online features like accessing a store, improved resolutions, improved performance, etc. With that said, just push the current console for nostalgia reasons. Also, if you wanna play some classic Halo games online then Halo MCC.

Lesser specifications doesn't mean you give up access to an online store, improved resolutions, improved performance. - They're original Xbox games, they can run on a toaster.
You could take the Xbox One S chipset and almost cut it in half and it will still be more than sufficient.

Not quite, to make the Gamecube, Wii and PS2 emulators to work well you need a pretty good or modern CPU. Essentially the same CPU power to make modern games run well. Not what I consider a toaster. To boost the resolution and other settings it requires even more power.

Also, if they use different hardware that means they have to port the existing emulator or create a new one. With all that taken into consideration, it makes sense to use existing hardware (Xbox One S) which plays OG Xbox games very well already with improved visuals. Its more work to create new hardware that plays OG Xbox games just as well, create an online storel also a new device wouldn't have all the features X1 has. The X1 is already doing what people want, so why move away from that to make an inferior device?

Another option is creating a revised Xbox One that's cheaper to produce. Maybe something MS is working on for the final years. Kinda like the Xbox 360 E model.

Last edited by Mr Puggsly - on 28 December 2018

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Mr Puggsly said:

Not quite, to make the Gamecube, Wii and PS2 emulators to work well you need a pretty good or modern CPU. Essentially the same CPU power to make modern games run well. Not what I consider a toaster. To boost the resolution and other settings it requires even more power.

But it wouldn't be emulating the Gamecube or Wii with it's PowerPC instruction set, It wouldn't be emulating the Playstation 2 with it's MIPS instruction set either... Making your argument rather superfluous.

There is significantly less overhead as the instructions being translated from the Original machine to the newer machine is 1:1 as both are x86. - In-fact there should be minimal need for emulation itself anyway, maybe a higher reliance on repackaging/abstraction/virtualization and other techniques though. - Which is how Microsoft achieves what it does with Xbox 360 emulation on the poor Jaguar CPU's.

With that said... Emulating Gamecube, Wii or the Playstation 2 isn't very CPU demanding anymore, even AMD's cheapest dual-core CPU's can handle it fine these days.


Mr Puggsly said:

Also, if they use different hardware that means they have to port the existing emulator or create a new one.

No. It doesn't mean that at all.
They are using the same hardware architecture, they can still use the same software.
Remember... The Xbox One actually runs multiple Operating Systems, cut a few of those out... And only keep what is required for Emulation and you can decrease CPU and DRAM usage.

But they don't even have to do that. 2GB of Ram free is more than enough memory to emulate Original Xbox games.

Mr Puggsly said:

With all that taken into consideration, it makes sense to use existing hardware (Xbox One S) which plays OG Xbox games very well already with improved visuals.

Waste of money though.
I get what you are saying... But the Xbox One S already does everything you describe... And people aren't flocking to it like they did with the NES or SNES Classic and buying it in droves for that sole reason as far as I know.

Cost is a massive factor, regardless of extra value incentive extras.

Mr Puggsly said:

Its more work to create new hardware that plays OG Xbox games just as well, create an online storel also a new device wouldn't have all the features X1 has.

It's not "new" hardware per-say. - They can harvest dud chips.

Mr Puggsly said:

The X1 is already doing what people want, so why move away from that to make an inferior device?

Price. - Doesn't mean the Xbox One goes away either.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

Pemalite said:
Mr Puggsly said:

Not quite, to make the Gamecube, Wii and PS2 emulators to work well you need a pretty good or modern CPU. Essentially the same CPU power to make modern games run well. Not what I consider a toaster. To boost the resolution and other settings it requires even more power.

But it wouldn't be emulating the Gamecube or Wii with it's PowerPC instruction set, It wouldn't be emulating the Playstation 2 with it's MIPS instruction set either... Making your argument rather superfluous.

There is significantly less overhead as the instructions being translated from the Original machine to the newer machine is 1:1 as both are x86. - In-fact there should be minimal need for emulation itself anyway, maybe a higher reliance on repackaging/abstraction/virtualization and other techniques though. - Which is how Microsoft achieves what it does with Xbox 360 emulation on the poor Jaguar CPU's.

With that said... Emulating Gamecube, Wii or the Playstation 2 isn't very CPU demanding anymore, even AMD's cheapest dual-core CPU's can handle it fine these days.


Mr Puggsly said:

Also, if they use different hardware that means they have to port the existing emulator or create a new one.

No. It doesn't mean that at all.
They are using the same hardware architecture, they can still use the same software.
Remember... The Xbox One actually runs multiple Operating Systems, cut a few of those out... And only keep what is required for Emulation and you can decrease CPU and DRAM usage.

But they don't even have to do that. 2GB of Ram free is more than enough memory to emulate Original Xbox games.

Mr Puggsly said:

With all that taken into consideration, it makes sense to use existing hardware (Xbox One S) which plays OG Xbox games very well already with improved visuals.

Waste of money though.
I get what you are saying... But the Xbox One S already does everything you describe... And people aren't flocking to it like they did with the NES or SNES Classic and buying it in droves for that sole reason as far as I know.

Cost is a massive factor, regardless of extra value incentive extras.

Mr Puggsly said:

Its more work to create new hardware that plays OG Xbox games just as well, create an online storel also a new device wouldn't have all the features X1 has.

It's not "new" hardware per-say. - They can harvest dud chips.

Mr Puggsly said:

The X1 is already doing what people want, so why move away from that to make an inferior device?

Price. - Doesn't mean the Xbox One goes away either.

I get your logic of the CPU architecture, if what you're suggesting was the case the X1 would get perfect performance in all OG Xbox BC games. But that's not the case, uncapped games still struggle to stay at 60 fps. So the emulation process is still very CPU intensive on the vastly superior CPU of X1 or even X1X. The X1X does get better performance and that's very likely from the extra CPU power.

You don't need an expensive CPU to emulate PS2, Gamecube, or Wii, but it does need to be a powerful or modern CPU to run all games well, especially if you want to improve visuals.

Hypothetically, they could just use the same Xbox One APU, maybe a couple GB of memory and 32-64GB of storage for the games. Adding wifi would only be for downloading games, adding a DVD drive is possible but would make it more expensive. I think in the end though you still get a device that will be at least $99 so little profit, vastly inferior overall, and wouldn't have online Halo. That's why I don't want to cater to the masses only willing to spend $99, it would be junk compared to a X1. Go get a SNES or PS1 mini if that's all you have to spend.

Fuck price, $199 isn't that bad and you get a much more capable product. If you just wanna play old Xbox games it does that and very well, but if you consider playing 7th gen and 8th gen content (maybe finish the fight with Halo 3), it does that too. That's the great thing about the X1, its kinda like the best of all Xbox consoles in one machine. That becomes more true as the BC list grows.

Last edited by Mr Puggsly - on 29 December 2018

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Mr Puggsly said:

I get your logic of the CPU architecture, if what you're suggesting was the case the X1 would get perfect performance in all OG Xbox BC games. But that's not the case, uncapped games still struggle to stay at 60 fps. So the emulation process is still very CPU intensive on the vastly superior CPU of X1 or even X1X. The X1X does get better performance and that's very likely from the extra CPU power.

To be fair, Xbox 360 emulation is better than OG Xbox emulation on the Xbox One, Microsoft simply has invested more time and effort into their Xbox 360 emulator.

OG Xbox emulation is also very lightly threaded... It's the same issue with the Playstation 2 vs Playstation 3 emulation on PC, the Playstation 3 doesn't need 50x more CPU time than the Playstation 2 emulator because it will simply throw more threads at the problem... And because of PS3's emphasis on more threads, there is less issue in keeping tick rates/sync perfect across the board as heavily threaded games tend to be less reliant on those.

Mr Puggsly said:

You don't need an expensive CPU to emulate PS2, Gamecube, or Wii, but it does need to be a powerful or modern CPU to run all games well, especially if you want to improve visuals.

It doesn't need to be a powerful CPU. It just needs to be a CPU with the appropriate instructions, Intel for example (Haswell and newer) have a TSX instruction which can boost performance by 30% or more in some emulators.

When it comes to boosting visuals, that can fall entirely on the GPU for the most part... And let's face it. Even today's cheapest of the cheapest GPU's is superior to the Geforce 3/4 hybrid in the Original Xbox.


Mr Puggsly said:

Hypothetically, they could just use the same Xbox One APU, maybe a couple GB of memory and 32-64GB of storage for the games. Adding wifi would only be for downloading games, adding a DVD drive is possible but would make it more expensive. I think in the end though you still get a device that will be at least $99 so little profit, vastly inferior overall, and wouldn't have online Halo. That's why I don't want to cater to the masses only willing to spend $99, it would be junk compared to a X1. Go get a SNES or PS1 mini if that's all you have to spend.

They could cut off the ESRAM as well, which accounts for a large proportion of the SoC's transistor budget.


Mr Puggsly said:

Fuck price, $199 isn't that bad and you get a much more capable product. If you just wanna play old Xbox games it does that and very well, but if you consider playing 7th gen and 8th gen content (maybe finish the fight with Halo 3), it does that too. That's the great thing about the X1, its kinda like the best of all Xbox consoles in one machine. That becomes more true as the BC list grows.

Price is a big factor in these nostalgia fueled boxes... Microsoft could theoretically sell the OG Micro consoles at a loss... And profit from extra digital game sales.



--::{PC Gaming Master Race}::--

There would be no games to put on it or at least no iconic exclusives. It would comprise of Halo CE and Project Gothem racing... what else would there be that would feed on anyone's nostalgia. MS simply don't have a strong legacy.



 

Yeah, I would love that but as you say, it would likely need a custom UI. They could also exclude the Blu-ray to reduce size.



I would buy $149 XB1S mini in a heartbeat, even without the physical drive. Considering that it already costs $199, I wouldn't be surprised if next year MS could lower the price of such device to $99. And holy s****, it'd sell like hotcakes, especially if they bundled it with some XB classics. 

Last edited by Kristof81 - on 29 December 2018

John2290 said:
There would be no games to put on it or at least no iconic exclusives. It would comprise of Halo CE and Project Gothem racing... what else would there be that would feed on anyone's nostalgia. MS simply don't have a strong legacy.

Much like the PS1 Mini, there would be a reliance on 3rd party software.

But a few 1st party games... Halo 1 and 2 (could be done via MCC), Fable, Voodoo Vince (either original or port), Blinx games, Crimson Skies and Bruteforce. Never played them but the Mech Assault games are praised.

I agree that isn't an amazing or big list, but outside of a few good 1st party games the Xbox was made great by 3rd party games. That's a much longer list I could produce.



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