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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump's New Years Message

pbroy said:
This is a funny man with a great sense of humor. It's like he has been a user on VGChartz for years and has adapted from first being an obvious troll and learned how to stealth troll, like all of us. 🙄Now he is so good, he can throw around jabs without getting banned. He knows how to work the system.

We are in good hands, just like this site. It's gone for years like this and we survive.

I love you Ivanka. 😍

Yea, he is stealth trolling now.  I might adopt his style a little myself.  Semi talk shit and the put a Love! at the end of it.  That Love! makes up for anything said before.



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S.T.A.G.E. said:
aLkaLiNE said:
Honestly if I had won the election against all odds and against actual professionals then I'd probably throw shade here and there too 😂 Shows how much faith we have in our government to elect an outsider such as himself.

??? Trump didnt win anythig against all odds. He won in an electoral landslide and got record breaking  coverage because of his outrageous statements. Trumps attitude is fine if you're not president, but honestly its going to become tiring to the world.

Regardless of how many times he says it AND believes it for his ego, Trump did not win in a landslide. It was a very close election.  Had just a couple of states switched sides, Hillary would have been President. Not that that would have been good, either. But, at least she'd have opposition in Congress, instead of rushing things through.

In the end, this election was truly one of the unlikables. Against Hillary, any Rep would have won, the reason so many ran and stayed in so long (well, that and Trump was a weak frontrunner, where most have clinched the win with much fewer primaries.)  If the Dems had run Biden, instead of Nixon incarnate, I have no doubt that Trump would have lost. Biden would have been much better at striking back and using Trumps gafs to his advantage.  

And truthfully, Trump NEEDED to lose for him to become a better person. To realize he's not that well liked. Unfortunately, that didn't happen, so his ego is still kicking into overdrive.  He's probably telling himself this has been one of, if not the largest, landslides in history.  He's going to keep boasting and attacking his enemies, which is the exact opposite of what the country needs, now.



Well...at least he send them good wishes?

I just want his presidency to start, the suspense is killing me.



"Trick shot? The trick is NOT to get shot." - Lucian

bunchanumbers said:
eva01beserk said:

OK, how many presiddents in the past fully delivered on all their promises? Not even 50% of their promises. And its not really cuz they had lied, but because they face resistance the entire wway by the oposing side.The same happened while under bama. Its not like kids think that everything a president says goes, they all have to summit new bills and laws to congres, stated and all what ever and ends in a vote. Great ideas just denied because people still dont trust them and I expect this to be worse with trump. He will have a dificult time getting anything aproved because the winy democrats will opose him just to opose him, no matter how good the idea is. This "trump is not my president" bull will keep hi from complishing things, while the same oposing winers compllaing that he hasent done anything yet.

What do you mean? The president who is leaving did that. He even beat campaign promises that his opponent Romney pledged during the 2012 campaign. His big thing was promising to get unemployment to 6% and Obama even beat that. He promised to get insurance to everyone and he did it. Here's a list of Obamas promises that were made, broken, or compromised on. Please keep in mind that he pulled this off with a GOP who made it their purpose in life to fight on everything he did and happily admitted it and for a country where there were several people who said things about him and his wife that were far from respectful. Trump even said that he wasn't from this country.

And Trump has none of those excuses. Congress and the Senate are both republican majorities. The states have over 30 republican governors.  If he can't do anything it will be because of his own people and doesn't have that excuse. Obama had a far harder time than Trump will.

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/browse/?page=1

Please. The only reason its 6% is because we no longer count those who have given up. It's probably closer to 10%. Its the same math they used to magically get it below 10% before the Romney/Obama election, taking away Romney's big talking point. Hell, include underemployment and it's probably closer to 15%-18%.

And Obamacare did not give everyone insurance. There are still millions uncovered, either by choose or because the skyrocketing premiums is making it unaffordable and they don't qualify for the cheaper insurance. And some people are only covered because they don't want to pay the tax on not having insurance, the most ridiculous and unAmerican thing I've seen passed.  Obamacare just made it more expensive for the normal guy. And the guy who wrote it admitted that was the plan. Make things so horrible for the non-poor, they cry out for the government to just take over and we'll have universal healthcare, which basically means more money for the government and longer wait times for the normal guy.

eva01beserk said:
bunchanumbers said:

He already said he isn't doing half of what he promised. So there's that.

OK, how many presiddents in the past fully delivered on all their promises? Not even 50% of their promises. And its not really cuz they had lied, but because they face resistance the entire wway by the oposing side.The same happened while under bama. Its not like kids think that everything a president says goes, they all have to summit new bills and laws to congres, stated and all what ever and ends in a vote. Great ideas just denied because people still dont trust them and I expect this to be worse with trump. He will have a dificult time getting anything aproved because the winy democrats will opose him just to opose him, no matter how good the idea is. This "trump is not my president" bull will keep hi from complishing things, while the same oposing winers compllaing that he hasent done anything yet.

While you are right, Trump's case is very different. He's not even in office and seeing that opposition, or using opposition as just an excuse, yet is going back on promises. And for the first two years, he has a majority in Congress, so can't bitch about opposition.  

Truth is, he said whatever appealed to his base in the primary to defeat Cruz. Promising to keep jobs, which he won't be able to do. If he puts his policies into action about jobs, prices here will skyrocket with the upcoming tariff war. Companies are moving towards automation, anyway.  I highly doubt we're even getting 50% of any wall built. He'll probably build 5%-10%, of a fence and not a wall, and use some BS reason to get out of it. He promised to drain the swamp, yet a lot of his position picks are like any other Republican, choosing from Reps who have been part of the swamp for years/decades. Trump tried to make himself look like the outsider, when in fact, he's been part of the problem for just about as long as he's been alive, wheeling and dealing politicians for political favors. He is the swamp.



He's making the rich richer, and the salty saltier xD



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Define "failing upward."



Shadow1980 said:

The Electoral College wasn't "intended" to stand by any statewide popular vote. Quite the opposite. The Constitution as originally written allowed states to set whatever rules they want for selection of electors. For our first four elections, a majority of states had their legislature choose their electors, with zero input from the citizens. That method remained commonplace until the 1820s when it rapidly fell out of favor; by 1832 only South Carolina lacked any sort of popular vote method for elector selection, and it didn't switch to the popular vote until 1868. The states only allow its residents to have a vote as a consideration. They aren't obliged to honor a damn thing.

But the EC wasn't intended to be a rubber stamp, regardless of the state's elector selection rules. The electors are not constitutionally mandated to vote a particular way, and faithless electors have been around for 200 years, albeit in very limited numbers. Alexander Hamilton argued again the EC being a rubber stamp in the Federalist Papers No. 68. But by and large the EC has been little more than a rubber stamp its entire existence, and 31 states have laws mandating that its electors act as such. Trump has repeatedly shown that he was exactly the kind of person Hamilton warned about 228 years ago and the EC was arguably designed to stop. Two weeks ago the Electoral College had one last chance to justify its existence, and it failed.

The EC is a superfluous entity, an unrepresentative body designed by a group of men because they happened upon it as something that most of them could agree upon. Some thought the president should be selected by a national popular vote, and most originally felt he should be selected by the Congress. We ended up with the EC after much debate and compromise, and we ended up with it at least in part for the same reasons the Three-fifths Compromise existed. It is a relic of a time when the franchise was extended only to white land-owning males, who in most cases could still only vote for House members. It is an institution whose time has long passed, that only continues to exist because of sheer inertia. The trajectory of America has been increasingly democratic. Most electors were chosen by state legislatures, and now they're all chose by statewide popular vote. Senators were originally chose by state legislatures, and because of concerns of rampant corruption as well as legislative deadlock the 17th Amendment was passed, making Senators elected by and directly accountable to the citizens of their state. Originally only white landowning males could vote, but after decades of attempts to bring about universal suffrage now any adult citizen can vote regardless of race or gender. Poll taxes and other attempts at disenfranchising minorities and other citizens are now nominally illegal.

Yet the Electoral College remains as an institutional impediment towards "one person, one vote" for all citizens. Nearly all the people who stand by it and think it should remain the system of electing presidents into perpetuity are those who don't think much of representative democracy in the first place, who express apathy if not outright antipathy towards various voting rights amendments and laws (many of them rail against the 17th Amendment and have insinuated dislike of the 24th, and some even go as far as to—perhaps half-jokingly, perhaps entirely serious—advocate for repeal of the 19th), and who think winning elections is a mandate to gerrymander congressional districts and disenfranchise as many people as legally possible to rig the system to favor themselves.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Well if the states would could originally choose how to select their electors then that means they couldn't proudly proclaim themselves to be democratic, now could they ? There must be a reason why all state legislatures came to agree to choose their electors by popular vote instead of having them decide by themselves and some states having laws prohibiting pledged electors for voting other candidates ... 

You are correct that states could originally justify any method to select their electors but it matters not when practically ALL STATES unanimously agreed for the electors to represent the states popular vote a long time ago ... 

Alexander Hamilton is just one framers of the consitution out of the many who envisioned what the electoral college should be but since the constitution has such a loose interpretation the electoral college will act like a rubber stamp that you so currently loathe ... 

It's pretty clear in the consitition that the president should be represented by the states, it says nothing about the national popular vote ... 

The electoral college is a part of the great compromise between the popular vote (Virginia plan) and the state (New Jersey plan) representation ... 

You should at least try to see the rest of the framer's wisdom behind it instead taking just Alexander Hamilton's warning ... 



Trump as President of the USA: is going to rebuild the American economy, end world hunger and establish world peace.



Dark_Lord_2008 said:
Trump as President of the USA: is going to rebuild the American economy, end world hunger and establish world peace.

Maybe getting a little ahead of yourself. I think very few people expect much of him. Basicly jut stop what the democrats have done for the past few terms. Wich is focus efforts on the poor and the rich, completly disregarding and even at the cost of the midle working class. 

While I have no problems with the litle guy getting help, there is a limit as to how much Im willing to sacrifice myself to help, wich is what they have disregarded in the past. Im all for big companys getting tax brakes if it means they end up benefiting the employes, bu in most cases in americ, they all get the tax brake and most production just outsource the production. Obama care is  a joke. and thats I belive the biggest concerns most people have that they wanted trump to fix.

Theres also fredom of spech that was at risk, and hillary was going to make it a lot worse.



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Shadow1980 said:


I've never seen a proper explanation of why states shifted from the majority having their legislatures choose and the majority having their citizenry choose. If I had to guess, it was probably due to public pressure and/or political pressure from politicians who favored expanded suffrage. As I mentioned last night, originally only land-owning white males could vote at all. Perhaps because allowing only those who owned land to vote smacked of aristocracy, there was a push to expand the franchise to those who didn't own a certain amount of property. By the end of the 1820s, property ownership as a prerequisite for voting was in the process of rapid elimination, expanding the franchise to all free white males (though some states were still holdouts; property requirements weren't entirely eliminated until the 1850s). States having their electors chosen by statewide popular vote became increasingly common in roughly the same time frame, and probably for the same reasons. "Jeffersonian" and "Jacksonian" democracy were popular ideas in the first half of the 19th century, after all. Also, the Panic of 1819 may have been a trigger towards the push for abolishing property requirements to vote. But the franchise was expanded to a greaty many more people starting in the 1820s, and that was the first step in a long journey our country made towards universal suffrage.


And in that time there have been several occasions where the EC generated tremendous controversy and resulted in a lot of pressure to have it changed or abolished. It has been a controversial institution almost from the outset. The Founders themselves realized that as original designed it had a major shortcomings that were revealed in the elections of 1796 and 1800, which resulted in the passage of the 12th Amendment. The 1824 election saw a four-way race with no majority EC winner, sending the election to the House, and that resulted in what Andrew Jackson and his supporters called the "Corrupt Bargain." But this time there was no changes to the system at all despite a clear deficiency that generated political turmoil. The 1876 election was a massive clusterfuck that resulted in behind-the-scenes deals that yielded a compromise involving 20 disputed electoral votes; the terms of the compromise included the immediate end to Reconstruction in the South. Yet once again there were no successful attempts to amend the system; had there been a direct national popular vote, none of that would have been an issue.

Fast-forward to 1968. George Wallace's campaign for President operated on the knowledge that Wallace would not win, but they had hoped to win enough states to prevent Nixon and Humphrey from gaining a majority. Because of the distorting effect Wallace had on the election, there was actually increased pressure to abolish the EC. Gallup polls from after the 1968 election indicated that at least 80% of Americans wanted the EC abolished. The Bayh-Cellar Amendment was proposed to do just that, and actually passed the House of Representatives before dying in the Senate. That was the closest we ever came to abolishing the EC. Had it passed the Senate, it likely would have been ratified, as though most proposed amendments fail to pass through Congress, the ones that actually pass through Congress and are submitted to the states are historically very likely to pass.

Then we saw the controversial 2000 election. It came down to Florida, of course. Gore and Bush were separated by less than 600 votes. Not only was the Supreme Court decision to end the recounts controversial, but Ralph Nader proved to be a significant spoiler. Had even 1% of Nader voters in Florida instead switched to Gore on Election Day, we would have had a President Gore. And once again, no changes to the system despite widespread popular outrage. And 16 years later we saw the same thing: a presidential candidate who won the popular vote still lost in large part because her supporters just happened to not have quite the geographical distribution she needed to win the EC vote. And once again the EC generates tremendous controversy not only for giving the loser of the popular vote the win, but also because, despite a handful of rogue electors, it effectively rubber-stamped an imminently unqualified and potentially dangerous authoritarian demagogue because "Hey, that's the system we have."

The one change that this election brought about is that popular support for the EC has taken a highly partisan element. Gallup had been conducting polls on attitudes about the EC since at least 1967. A clear majority supported abolition of the EC and replacing it with a direction national popular vote, with support peaking at 80% after the 1968 election. This continued through to the turn of the century. The 2000 election saw a slight and distinctly partisan dip in support for abolition of the EC; Democrats saw a slight increase in favor of abolishing the EC, while Republican support for abolition dipped several points, and generally Republicans were in favor of the EC (support for a national popular vote after the 2000 election was 41% among Republicans and 71% among Democrats). However, a clear majority overall were in favor of abolition of the EC, beating the "keep the EC" respondents 59% to 37%. But by 2012, support for abolishing the EC grew to its highest point since 2000, and even a slim majority of Republicans (53%) supported replacing the EC with a direct national popular vote.

But Gallup conducted the same poll after this past election, and Republican-leaning voters, obviously seeing how the EC has yielded them victory despite losing the popular vote twice in 16 years, suddenly became massive supporters of the EC. Republican support for a national popular vote amendment dropped from 53% in late 2012 to only 19% in the most recent poll, a far sharper drop than the one seen in 2000. Meanwhile, Democrats, who have historically always been mostly against the EC, saw support for abolishing the EC grow from 69% to 81%, a far smaller rise than than the drop seen with Republican respondents. Whether this sticks in the long run remains to be seen (it didn't after 2000, as we saw Republican support for a national popular vote grow from 41% to 53%), but it's clear that support for the EC has become far more sharply partisan than ever before. You don't go from 53% support for a national popular vote to only 19% in one election because "Oh, we respect the Founder's vision." It's clearly because Republicans see the system as being advantageous to them. Meanwhile, despite pundit rhetoric of a "blue wall" in the Midwest prior to this past election, the vast majority of Democrats have not supported the EC at any point in recent history. I think we may see Republican attitudes shift sharply against the EC when Texas inevitably becomes a swing state and pulls Democratic for the first time in decades. Hell, demographic changes could see the Democrats have a permanent lock on the White House under the current system.


And that's why I think the Constitution needs to be amended. If it's merely a rubber stamp, then why have it? Because of some notion of federalism? State governments should have no part in the process of selecting the president. Small states shouldn't count for more than larger states in terms of voting power, because states as political entities should not figure in the presidential election. Only individual citizens have the right to vote, because only individual citizens can have rights (governments do not have "rights," only powers). The President is not only the final major elected office in the United States who is elected indirectly, it is the only remaining head of state in democracies with a full presidential system to be elected indirectly. Even other federations didn't use federalism as an excuse to retain their electoral colleges.

I'm aware of why we have the EC. At least some founders did support a direct national popular vote, but most didn't (James Madison argued that slave states would never have supported it seeing as the slave population, which was a significant part of their populations, couldn't vote), and the original plan was to have the President be selected by Congress, much like a prime minister is. That obviously didn't end up being the system we got, but it was a popular idea at the start of the Convention. We eventually got the EC because that was the system that most at the Convention could agree upon. The EC exists because of the political and social realities of the 1780s, realities that no longer exist.

The Founders had some great ideas, some bad ideas, and some ideas they just stumbled upon because they were a fractious bunch who couldn't agree on a great many things and thus had to compromise. But I think the most important thing to remember is that they are just men. We are not necessarily beholded to them. We should not deify them. The Constitution should not be treated as some immutable holy document set in stone and handed down from on high, and one of the things I think the Founders did get right was that they didn't treat it like that, either. Sure, the Founders are the ones that gave us the Electoral College, but their reasons for doing so ultimately don't matter anymore. As concepts of democracy evolved and the franchise expanded, many other things the Founders intended fell by the wayside, altered or abolished.

So should the Electoral College be cast aside.

It is unrepresentative, giving people more or less voting power depending on their state's population, and always gives the winner a far larger percentage of the EC vote than of the popular vote. It effectively disenfranchises millions of voters who live in states where the vast majority vote differently from them (why should a California Republican or Nebraska Democrat even bother voting for President?). It has effectively made a dozen or so "swing" states the only ones that really matter in the end. None of the other reasons for retaining it hold any water. It is an institution whose time has long passed. With the EC abolished and a national popular vote in its place, every vote would count, and would count equally. No state, no demographic could be ignored because of an accident in their geographical location or population or how close the Republican-Democratic vote balance is. Indirect elections are an idea that needs to die. They have no place in America anymore.

 

I'd be OK with amending the constitution to a national popular vote if all states/regions were demographically and socioeconomically similar like China but it is not the case today and the founding fathers realized it would be so for a long time. Changing the consititution like so would be brash since the united states was not founded in a unitary fashion, it was made to be a federation between the 50 different states. While it is individuals that have the right to vote, they alone do NOT have the right to elect a president as that duty is handed across all 50 states according to the constitution and concessions do NEED to be made if we want more representation for smaller states ... 

It's not exactly a consensus if 1 state out of the 20 state could overturn the will of the rest of the other states because their the most populous one ... 

It can not be said enough that America is not 1 unified nation but that it is a union between 50 smaller states ... 

The electoral college is not the problem but I see federalism as a problem, we should emphasize state sovereignty a little more and make the legislative and executive branch weaker nationally speaking ... 

America should aim to be more of a confederation instead of a federation then we don't have to bitch so much about congressional and presidential elections when state legislature elections matter more ...