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Forums - Politics Discussion - SHOCK CLAIM: Ukrainian fighter jet shot down Malaysia Airlines' MH17

Sharu said:

Almaz-Antey reports
http://tass.ru/eksperiment-almaz-anteya/videomaterialy/ - videos
http://ria.ru/mh17/20151013/1300992268.html - article with explanations... All in Russian, sorry. Basically, Antey in their report saying that the Boeing was shot down by Buk missile, but its another (older)  type of Buk (9М38) which isn't produced since 1986 and is not on positions in Russian arny since 2011.
Newer type of missiles  9М38М1 will have very different picture of damage on the plane. 
Also they are saying that Buk fired not from area af Snezhnoe, but from Zaroschenskoe. 

Of course, you should take it with a grain of salt as any information nowadays, but thats the report. Antey saying that they give full information to Netherlands investigation team, but they ignored it. 

Are you sure about this?  A website I saw said that the Almaz-Antey report claims that it was indeed a 9M38M1 missile.  They argue that this missile type is also out of production, and therefore they should not be sanctioned by Europe for producing the missile that downed MH17 (because they don't make it anymore).  Also, the website says that Ukraine and Russia both still use 9M38M1 missiles. 
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/the-pressconference-of-almaz-antey-has-two-major-errors/

In case you don't trust this website, I assume you at least trust Russia Today? 
https://www.rt.com/news/264421-buk-missile-manufacturer-investigation/
“If a surface-to-air missile system was used [to hit the plane], it could only have been a 9M38M1 missile of the BUK-M1 system,” Almaz-Antey announced on Tuesday.

The RT article goes on to claim that the missile had to be Ukrainian because Russia no longer uses 938M1 (and therefore could not give them to rebels), but Putin would be surprised to learn this: 




(Please ignore the broken picture link.  I can't get rid of it but it was nothing more than a failed attempt at one of the two pictures above.  Nothing is missing as of when I post this.) 



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Sharu said:
Final-Fan said:

I have looked into this, and found information that seems conclusive unless it can be challenged as false. 
http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2014/jul/20/john-kerry/kerry-ukrainian-separatist-bragged-social-media/

"We know that a post appeared on Strelkov’s social media profile bragging about shooting down a transport plane close to the MH 17 crash site. In a subsequent post, Strelkov said the information passed along came not from him directly, but from militia members on the scene. He said the information was unofficial and incorrect.

"It’s impossible to know with certainty Strelkov's role in the post, or when the post was pulled, but we do know that the posts come from within the separatist movement -- as Strelkov himself said."

So it was definitely posted by rebel militia.  But the militia (after knowing about MH17) said that the militia members who posted it didn't know what they were talking about.  Extremely suspicious. 

That Strelkov man is very suspitious too. He's out from Donetsk now, and trying to build some patriotic opposition movement in Russia. He was promoted thru the Internet as hell before the incident. After that he flew to Russia. Now some investigations going on against him. 
So to call him a part of Donetsk rebels is a bit wrong.

Do you at least agree that he is anti-Ukrainian?  If so, then you would not expect him to be part of any coverup or helping Ukraine shift its guilt to Russia. 

Anyway, this might be distracting from the other things.  I am interested in your response to the transcript I posted when your Russian sources denied that Ukraine had released their transcript, and I'm also interested to see what you think of the fact that you had been misinformed about the missile identification. 



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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kowenicki said:
Kerotan said:

I lost you at respected.  There are no respected major news outlets in the west.  They are all part of the same corrupt system.  

There are degrees of respect.

God I hate this social justice warrior crap that is so prevelant in the west right now... it is FARRRR better here in the west than in Eastern Europe and most of the world actually.  There really is no comparison.

The term social justice warrior has lost its meaning and now it means anyone who disagrees with you. 

Or anyone with a different frame of reference.  And usually its used by bigots with an agenda like the folks I saw on comment sections bashing Battlefield 1's cover for have a black guy on it.  They said having a black character on the cover was the result of social justice warriors... because obviously why else would blacks be allowed on game covers?

So now now everytime some says this is SJW... I have to stop and read into the context.  Is anything but America SJW?  How does ridiculing the US make you SJW. If you point at America and say, I like other places, are you SJW?  To me calling someone SJW is just a scapegoat to avoid real dialogue. 

Sorry for the rant. I'm just fed up with that term.

Also why isn't anyone calling for justice against the Ukrainian government?  Or did I miss that?



Final-Fan said:
Sharu said:

That Strelkov man is very suspitious too. He's out from Donetsk now, and trying to build some patriotic opposition movement in Russia. He was promoted thru the Internet as hell before the incident. After that he flew to Russia. Now some investigations going on against him. 
So to call him a part of Donetsk rebels is a bit wrong.

Do you at least agree that he is anti-Ukrainian?  If so, then you would not expect him to be part of any coverup or helping Ukraine shift its guilt to Russia. 

Anyway, this might be distracting from the other things.  I am interested in your response to the transcript I posted when your Russian sources denied that Ukraine had released their transcript, and I'm also interested to see what you think of the fact that you had been misinformed about the missile identification. 

http://tass.ru/eksperiment-almaz-anteya/naturnyy-eksperiment/2343905
In the report of Antey they clearly saying that the missile is 9M38. Its in the very end of this page, you won't miss it. So it seems RT is messed smth up. 

On a Strelkov - he's a part of some underground games. A lot of talks what a hero he is and then leaving huge part of Donetsk region to Ukraine army. So I don't trust anything from that man, too much lies from him exposed lately. 



Sharu said:

http://tass.ru/eksperiment-almaz-anteya/naturnyy-eksperiment/2343905
In the report of Antey they clearly saying that the missile is 9M38. Its in the very end of this page, you won't miss it. So it seems RT is messed smth up.

It may not be RT's fault.  Apparently Antey initially said that it was a 9M38M1 missile, but then changed their story and said it was a 9M38.  The change was apparently because at first they said there was damage in the "butterfly" or "bow-tie" or "double T" or "I-beam" shape of metal pieces in the 9M38M1, but later changed their findings.  You can see this in the picture at the bottom of the website you link, showing the check mark next to the square piece and the X by the butterfly piece. 

What you might be able to help me understand is why they made this decision when they show that picture with the butterfly-shaped hole circled in red.  What is going on there? 

Source on Antey's waffling: 
http://www.defensenews.com/story/defense/2015/10/18/russian-firm-offers-alternative-findings-downing-jet/74014360/

Also, I should note that the DSB report was very specific in citing that they found bowtie-shaped damage on the plane, which contributed to their conclusion that the 9M38M1 was the responsible weapon.  It seems that Antey and the DSB agree on that; I suppose Antey disagrees about what the damage to MH17 looked like. 

"The combination of the recorded pressure wave, the damage pattern found on the
wreckage  caused  by  blast  and  the  impact  of  fragments,  the  bow-tie  shaped 
fragments
found in the cockpit and in the body of one of the crew members in the
cockpit, the injuries sustained by three crew members in the cockpit, the analysis of
the in-flight break-up, the analysis of the explosive residues and paint found, and the
size and distinct, bow-tie, shape of some the fragments, led the Dutch Safety Board
to  conclude  that  the  aeroplane  was  struck  by  a  9N314M  warhead  as  carried  on  a 
9M38-series missile and launched by a Buk surface-to-air missile system."
(DSB report, Page 137)

Note that there is a website with pictures of pieces from the crash.  You can judge for yourself but those look like butterfly shaped holes in those pieces to me.  Unless you're going to argue that the site is showing faked photos or photos from some other shootdown? 
http://www.whathappenedtoflightmh17.com/parts-of-mh17-cockpit-found-in-december-2015/



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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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Sharu said:

http://tass.ru/eksperiment-almaz-anteya/naturnyy-eksperiment/2343905
In the report of Antey they clearly saying that the missile is 9M38. Its in the very end of this page, you won't miss it. So it seems RT is messed smth up.

(Reminder post—see my previous post for more detailed reply.) 

Sharu, I cannot read Russian.  What does the circled portion of damage at the bottom of the website mean?  And what do you think about that other website and the pictures of damage that match the damage pattern of a 9M38M1 missile?  Or have I completely misread everything and the butterfly damage pattern is from a 9M38 (not 9M38M1) missile?  (If so please link source.) 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
Sharu said:

http://tass.ru/eksperiment-almaz-anteya/naturnyy-eksperiment/2343905
In the report of Antey they clearly saying that the missile is 9M38. Its in the very end of this page, you won't miss it. So it seems RT is messed smth up.

(Reminder post—see my previous post for more detailed reply.) 

Sharu, I cannot read Russian.  What does the circled portion of damage at the bottom of the website mean?  And what do you think about that other website and the pictures of damage that match the damage pattern of a 9M38M1 missile?  Or have I completely misread everything and the butterfly damage pattern is from a 9M38 (not 9M38M1) missile?  (If so please link source.) 

In the bottom is written:
'Refinement the type of missile. Missile type is 9M38 with a warhead 9H314 (with no twotaurs (Double-t-iron - not sure if correct, butterfly shapen)'

I don't know anything on damage pattern. I'm not metallurgy or weapon export, so I'd better not speak my opinion on the things I understand nothing. 

Btw pictures on the link higher are from experiment. 

Pictures from actual MH17 are here http://tass.ru/eksperiment-almaz-anteya/ocenka-povrezhdeniy-samoleta/2344008



Sharu said:

I don't know anything on damage pattern. I'm not metallurgy or weapon export, so I'd better not speak my opinion on the things I understand nothing. 

Thank you.  Forgetting for the moment the damage pattern, the DSB report spoke of "the  bow-tie shaped fragments found in the cockpit and in the body of one of the crew members", so if I am understanding their report correctly it sounds like they found the actual shrapnel pieces that came out of the missile that are shaped like the 9M38M1 shrapnel pieces. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
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Final-Fan said:
Sharu said:

I don't know anything on damage pattern. I'm not metallurgy or weapon export, so I'd better not speak my opinion on the things I understand nothing. 

Thank you.  Forgetting for the moment the damage pattern, the DSB report spoke of "the  bow-tie shaped fragments found in the cockpit and in the body of one of the crew members", so if I am understanding their report correctly it sounds like they found the actual shrapnel pieces that came out of the missile that are shaped like the 9M38M1 shrapnel pieces. 

Do you know if there's missiles with mixed type? Cause IF there are damage with BOTH kinds of shrapnel that could mean that it was two missiles of diff types or what? Cause I've taken a look on the photos of MH17 in internet and there's very few holes which can be interpreted as 'bow-tie' (?) shrapnel. And if the actual shrapnel pieces are different it only gives us more questions...



Sharu, you are the Russian troll? In Ukraine there is a war and the Russian troops are in her territory including Beeches, tanks, artillery and other military equipment. Russia has violated international law, annexed the Crimea. What still it is necessary to you proofs? Russia has violated the territorial integrity of Ukraine. You didn't know it or you supports it?