By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - PC Discussion - Starcraft II devs revert only good change since the original game

Kagerow said:
Scisca said:


Maybe you should just play a different game? Or only play the Archon mode? Starcraft needs great macro. Macro > micro. It's been the same since SC1 hit the market, deal with it. I love SC the way it is :)


Just wondering, what unneccesary macro management did Blizzard include in Starcraft 1?

It was limited by the game engine of the time.

Could only select 12 units, could only select one building at a time.

Starcraft 2 removed these engine limitations so the dev team had to come up with new ideas to help differentiate pro level play.Sadly in my opinion dull unit design plus overzealous balance changes in SC2 is what killed the game but from what i have seen of the new protoss expansion there are some positive moves in that department.



Around the Network
Nettles said:
Kagerow said:


Just wondering, what unneccesary macro management did Blizzard include in Starcraft 1?

It was limited by the game engine of the time.

Could only select 12 units, could only select one building at a time.

Starcraft 2 removed these engine limitations so the dev team had to come up with new ideas to help differentiate pro level play.Sadly in my opinion dull unit design plus overzealous balance changes in SC2 is what killed the game but from what i have seen of the new protoss expansion there are some positive moves in that department.


...Okay? So Blizzard did right thing by removing the engine limitation, but killed the game because they thought they had to make an arbitary gap between players, make overzealous unit design, and timid balance changes.

What's with the recent developing trend of designing game to have an arbitary difficulty on entering?



Scisca said:
Soleron said:

I was referring to all three macro mechanics for this thread, I just wanted to highlight the absurd justification for the inject revert in particular. Mule should be removed and chrono should be automated. (The weird hybrid they have for chrono now is actually worse than HOTS in terms of mind-space and clicks)


Maybe you should just play a different game? Or only play the Archon mode? Starcraft needs great macro. Macro > micro. It's been the same since SC1 hit the market, deal with it. I love SC the way it is :)

I AM playing a different game. Got to Masters in WoL, played on university team, hundreds of pounds spent on tournament streams (GSL, MLG) and then left around HOTS release for LoL and then later Hearthstone, because I don't enjoy meaningless clicking. I enjoy strategy games.

As soon as I saw the macro mechanics change, I preordered LoV.

As soon as I saw the revert, I cancelled my preorder (just got a message back from Blizz support confirming the refund).



Soleron said:
Scisca said:


Maybe you should just play a different game? Or only play the Archon mode? Starcraft needs great macro. Macro > micro. It's been the same since SC1 hit the market, deal with it. I love SC the way it is :)

I AM playing a different game. Got to Masters in WoL, played on university team, hundreds of pounds spent on tournament streams (GSL, MLG) and then left around HOTS release for LoL and then later Hearthstone, because I don't enjoy meaningless clicking. I enjoy strategy games.

As soon as I saw the macro mechanics change, I preordered LoV.

As soon as I saw the revert, I cancelled my preorder (just got a message back from Blizz support confirming the refund).


Ah, ok. Pity a good talent left the community.



Wii U is a GCN 2 - I called it months before the release!

My Vita to-buy list: The Walking Dead, Persona 4 Golden, Need for Speed: Most Wanted, TearAway, Ys: Memories of Celceta, Muramasa: The Demon Blade, History: Legends of War, FIFA 13, Final Fantasy HD X, X-2, Worms Revolution Extreme, The Amazing Spiderman, Batman: Arkham Origins Blackgate - too many no-gaemz :/

My consoles: PS2 Slim, PS3 Slim 320 GB, PSV 32 GB, Wii, DSi.

Kagerow said:
Scisca said:


Maybe you should just play a different game? Or only play the Archon mode? Starcraft needs great macro. Macro > micro. It's been the same since SC1 hit the market, deal with it. I love SC the way it is :)


Just wondering, what unneccesary macro management did Blizzard include in Starcraft 1?


How about only being able to select 12 units at a time, no multiple building selection, or having to send EVERY SINGLE FUCKING WORKER TO THE MINERAL LINE WHEN IT FINISHED BUILDING? THOSE?



I bet the Wii U would sell more than 15M LTD by the end of 2015. He bet it would sell less. I lost.

Around the Network
Kagerow said:
Killy_Vorkosigan said:
That's exactly what I thought out after a few seconds of playing SC2.

Really pissed off they made it for hardcore players and not for the average gamer. Now the franchise is dead, but for a few clicking frenzy pro players.


Ironically, Korean SC2 community is positively furious over Blizzard bringing back the Macro. From Code S to Bronze, they all want it gone. Completely Gone.

And I agree, just as they said - Macro element in strategy game is a design error. Not only it makes an arbitary difficulty cliff that stops new player deadhalt, but it also stops many aging professionals from continue developing new strategy as it tilts game's focus into base management, not grand strategy.

Considering that SC2's action ends even faster than SC1's, Macro pushed already borderline boring game to even worse state, combined with increasing demand of unit micro control.

Though, even if they fix this problem now, It is too late for Starcraft franchise to make a huge comeback in E-sport scene...


No macro = not StarCraft. This is not LOL, DOTA, or WarCraft. Macro is a part of the game and it needs to stay that way. I honestly don't know how you can possibly complain about this...



I bet the Wii U would sell more than 15M LTD by the end of 2015. He bet it would sell less. I lost.

ohmylanta1003 said:
Kagerow said:


Ironically, Korean SC2 community is positively furious over Blizzard bringing back the Macro. From Code S to Bronze, they all want it gone. Completely Gone.

And I agree, just as they said - Macro element in strategy game is a design error. Not only it makes an arbitary difficulty cliff that stops new player deadhalt, but it also stops many aging professionals from continue developing new strategy as it tilts game's focus into base management, not grand strategy.

Considering that SC2's action ends even faster than SC1's, Macro pushed already borderline boring game to even worse state, combined with increasing demand of unit micro control.

Though, even if they fix this problem now, It is too late for Starcraft franchise to make a huge comeback in E-sport scene...


No macro = not StarCraft. This is not LOL, DOTA, or WarCraft. Macro is a part of the game and it needs to stay that way. I honestly don't know how you can possibly complain about this...

 

Even without Chrono Boost and their friend removed, you still need to build and order your building to create unit, upgrade your unit and so on.

APM spaces left by removing Macro can be used to Micro control units (As number of Magic unit increases) and executing small scale tactics. It is always more interesting to see people doing something rather than just building up Army.

I'm more so amused to see people keep insisting that Macro is vital part of any real time strategy game. I'm partially glad that most Korean can't read western forum, since that would start a keyboard war over this issue.



Ok guys, Starcraft 2 isn't dying, it's just simply stagnant, with maybe a bit of negative correlation. Jeez overreacting much...

But anyways, I'm in favor for no auto-macro management, so I support what Blizzard did. It's what made Starcraft popular to begin with. Do it as an option sure, whatever, but keep it away from ranked ladder. Without all the macro management, APM would VASTLY go down, which is what makes Starcraft what it's known for. Without it, might as well call it Heroes of the Storm in the process...oh wait.

It's like in Melee/PM where L-cancelling is required for everything not doing an L-cancel only harms yourself. It's a necessary evil to prove that Melee is a technical game, albeit arbitrary (though there are many other aspects of the game that makes it technical), it brings hype and awes people of the technicality of the game. You don't see anywhere near the reception for Smash 4/Brawl in terms of technicality, which is often called out as boring, untechnical games because it's so much less technical compared to its predecessor. There's an option for "Auto L-Cancel" for PM which is perfect for casuals, but it brings a negative connotation to the community in general because how significantly less technical the game becomes, thus less hype. Now I may be comparing apples and oranges here, but I'm sure some similar aspects apply here.



Kagerow said:
ohmylanta1003 said:
Kagerow said:


Ironically, Korean SC2 community is positively furious over Blizzard bringing back the Macro. From Code S to Bronze, they all want it gone. Completely Gone.

And I agree, just as they said - Macro element in strategy game is a design error. Not only it makes an arbitary difficulty cliff that stops new player deadhalt, but it also stops many aging professionals from continue developing new strategy as it tilts game's focus into base management, not grand strategy.

Considering that SC2's action ends even faster than SC1's, Macro pushed already borderline boring game to even worse state, combined with increasing demand of unit micro control.

Though, even if they fix this problem now, It is too late for Starcraft franchise to make a huge comeback in E-sport scene...


No macro = not StarCraft. This is not LOL, DOTA, or WarCraft. Macro is a part of the game and it needs to stay that way. I honestly don't know how you can possibly complain about this...

 

Even without Chrono Boost and their friend removed, you still need to build and order your building to create unit, upgrade your unit and so on.

APM spaces left by removing Macro can be used to Micro control units (As number of Magic unit increases) and executing small scale tactics. It is always more interesting to see people doing something rather than just building up Army.

I'm more so amused to see people keep insisting that Macro is vital part of any real time strategy game. I'm partially glad that most Korean can't read western forum, since that would start a keyboard war over this issue.

Yeah look, i dunno if you ever played BW but it's self explanatory.It is easier to create units if you can select 5 hatcheries at a time instead of having to click each hatchery individually to make the units.Using this "Freed up" APM to micro units more is a good idea in theory but in practice - SC2 units are less micro intensive than SC1 units.Reaver popping, stop/hold lurker, marine dance vs lurker.Look at units like Thor or a lesser extent colossus - hardly made for intense micro.SC1 has no comparable units to thor or colossus.You could argue that stalkers require more micro than goons but even then PVT in BW was highly tactical when it came to breaking tank/mine vulture/turret lines.And generally yes, macro is the most important part of an RTS.



Ruler said:

This is why i dont buy blizzard games anymore and dont play starcraft. Blizz doesnt even know what they want, the constant changes and why we even needed 3 starcraft 2s in the first place? it seperated the community, sc2 is pretty much dead now.

I much rather play bloodnorne over diablo 3 or starcraft 2 both broken games

What does Bloodbourne have to do with this? Oh right, nothing, you just wanted to mention it for no reason.