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Forums - Politics Discussion - Can everyone agree that White American police officers are above the law? - No indictment in Garner case......

reggin_bolas said:
I currently work in a psychiatric setting where I am empowered to use force to subdue violent clients. If I had to worry about being charged for assault I wouldn't work there. No one would. Therefore the threshold for proof must be high for professions that are authorized by law to use force.

I fully support these brave service members. God bless you as always for keeping us all safe.


The question is do you fully support what happened in that video? What psychiatric facility could you possibly work at where you couldn't be charged with assault if you crossed the line or went beyond procedures? Do you have no rules where you work? No one is saying cops can't use force, we are saying using force when not neccecary or using way more then the situation calls for.



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pepharytheworm said:
reggin_bolas said:
I currently work in a psychiatric setting where I am empowered to use force to subdue violent clients. If I had to worry about being charged for assault I wouldn't work there. No one would. Therefore the threshold for proof must be high for professions that are authorized by law to use force.

I fully support these brave service members. God bless you as always for keeping us all safe.


The question is do you fully support what happened in that video? What psychiatric facility could you possibly work at where you couldn't be charged with assault if you crossed the line or went beyond procedures? Do you have no rules where you work? No one is saying cops can't use force, we are saying using force when not neccecary or using way more then the situation calls for.


What video? I've seen no compelling evidence of excessive force. 



ow wow.. that other video after they got him on the ground and just lays there for 7 minutes while no cop is helping him, giving him cpr or anything till the ambulance arrives .. If you can't see there is something wrong with his health wtf is your job... he probably died right there..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT66U_Ftdng



 

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NiKKoM said:
outlawauron said:
NiKKoM said:
You know.. In my country we don't usually wrestle down a person who gets arrested.. The cops like ask politly to put your arms up and then one of them goes around you asking to lower your arms behind your back.. Our cops try to talk before actually take action which endangers more people..

The man sold sigarets.. And there are like 7 cops around him.. I think there is something wrong with the training and image of the us police.. Its not like " they are protecting us" but more "damn they are watching us"

I wonder why that would work in the Netherlands, but not work in the US.

Its  the cultural difference.. we tend to show respect cause in the end the cop has the gun, pepperspray, taser, policestick with him.. most dangerous stuff i legally could carry is a small knife.. I can understand an American cop has to act faster and with more force cause the chance of him getting killed by a suspect is much much higher then here..

The more I think about it, its not just the police but also the people themself.. I saw a video of a man who was stopped by the police cause he walked around with his hands in his pockets.. a store owner got scared he was having a gun in his pocket and called 911.. but the guy had his hand in his pocket cause it was freezing.. that way of thinking of the store owner is scaring for the future of the US..

Yes, there are also other factors that come into play other than the cultural difference of respect shown towards police officers. There's far more diversity and economic distance can lead to this (on top of having more than 15x the population).



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SocialistSlayer said:

no he did a submission hold on him, restricting blood flow to the brain, which is allowed, not a choke hold restricting oxygen to the lungs, which is prohibited.

homocide means death by another person, it is not a legal term in this context.

Do i believe the cop intentially tried to kill him, (something required to charge him with murder) no.

but i do think he acted out of line, used excessive force, and deserves to be charged with reckless endangerment or something. but it was mostly the guys poor health that killed him, not the cop.

but thats not to say the cop is innocent, i think he should do time

In the top part of your comment, you're wrong. It was a chokehold. You wouldn't say, multiple times "I can't breathe" if your blood, not oxygen, was being cut off. And the death was ruled a homicide by neck compressions, as jlmurph pointed out.

And homicide isn't as simple as "death by another person". It is a legal term. Otherwise a "manslaughter" charge and a "homicide" charge would be the same thing. But obviously there is a difference. You could say that the officer committed involuntary manslaughter, which means "unintentional homicide by criminially negligent or reckless conduct"...but this death was ruled a straight up homicide/murder, something that's not limited to "malicious intent" (meaning, intent to kill isn't needed, so that's something that is not required). Many states define it as "intentionally inflicting bodily harm that subsequently results in the victim's death". What intent do you think the officer had when he came from behind and put him in a chokehold after they attempted to arrest him? Give him a massage? No, he meant to weaken him (aka harm him) in order to make subduing him easier. And that intentional harm caused his death. Example: if I punch you in the arm, I don't intend to kill you. But if that punch ruptures an artery and you die from internal bleeding, I've commited a murder.



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SocialistSlayer said:
it is astonishing that that is the conclusion you came to. There is literally zero evidence that either this case nor mike brown's had anything to do with race. But unlike mike brown, which had no evidence to prove the officers guilt, this case definitely appeared that the officer acted outside the law.
Based on my limited viewing of the evidence, it is quite disappointing that this NY cop was not indicted. He certainly seemed guilty.

but again, how you came to the conclusion that white cops can just kill blacks all willy nilly is abhorrent.
FYI the last cop to be indicted in the death of a civilian, was a white cop (richard haste) killing a black man(ramarly graham).

This type of ignorance is why no progress will be made. White males (such as myself) still cannot garner consensus that race, indeed, is an underlying theme and variable to these incidents. Most, if not all, people worth having dialogue with are not saying it the THE cause but continueing to refuse the acknowledgement that it is a variables is why this cycle will continue.

The fact that 60 years ago there was segregation in this very country and people still fly confederate flags and talk about seceding is the evidence that there are still racial divides in this country.

Again, it is not a zero sum game. The problem is on both sides. People want to make this a solely white cop issue, these are generally the black community or liberal/democrats. The other side wants to pretend racism is over. the problem is the side that wants to pretend like there is "no evidence" for underlying racial tones in these cases are the white males who have all of the power. The problem is the people with no power IE: the non white male side do not have teh luxery of being thoughtful or careful in their outcries. Voting rights are slipping away because white males, drenched with subconscious guilt cannot wait to prove emphatically that "racism does not exist" The way to prove that is to remove laws that remind them of the guilt, to pretend it is not necesary so they can have some false peace with this countries history. This is why the people claiming "no evidence" of race are so quick to create this zero sum game because the acknowledgement that race is a factor means we have to deal with it instead of pretending racism is gone which is the goal of white men in america.



He didn't do anything wrong, the officer did it in self-defense he had asked the man to go the sidewalk, the man resisted and rushed for the cops gun, and the cop put him in the hold to get him to the floor. The most you could indict the cop for is excessive force.



KLAMarine said:

It seems health conditions contributed to Eric Garner's death. I don't know what it's like to be held down like that but just so we're clear, taking someone down to arrest them is not the same as actually opening fire. This seems more like an accident to me.

yeah, they "accidentaly" ganged up over the unnarmed man and kept on top of him while he said he couldnt breathe. total murder and all officers involved should be hanged do death.



NiKKoM said:
ow wow.. that other video after they got him on the ground and just lays there for 7 minutes while no cop is helping him, giving him cpr or anything till the ambulance arrives .. If you can't see there is something wrong with his health wtf is your job... he probably died right there..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vT66U_Ftdng


i could be wrong but arent you not soppossed to give people CPR if they are still breathing?



 

Razeak said:

How did the chokehold cause him to die? Was it the stress he received from being put in the hold causing him to have a heart attack? The description says he's saying "I can't breathe" while in the chokehold, but he clearly wasn't being choked as the arm wasn't around his throat at that time and he was able to speak clearly. From earlier comments I thought I was going to see a video of a cop not letting go or breaking the guys trachea. The initial application was sloppy to say the least and wasn't held for any significant amount of time. The coroner ruling it a homicide doesn't mean that there was intent to murder either.

It's not any different than any other type of employment. There is going to be good and bad. There are tens of thousands of police encounters every day that end well just as Mcdonald's get's millions of orders right every day. It's not all bad and it is illogical and doesn't follow evidence to the contrary.to believe so.

Are there prick cops, racist cops and predatory cops? Of course there are. There are even power hungry ones(I've had a run in with two over minor stops), but to assume that every person that takes it up as a career is like that is ridiculous. The training doctrine is built around respectful communication and ending things with the lowest level of force available and only if there is no other option. Just because it doesn't always go that way doesn't mean it always goes that way.


If we want to reduce events like the Garner event, lets stand up and get rid of totalitarian, idiotic laws like "selling loose, untaxed" cigarettes. This is the same state that had stop and frisk laws for years without probable cause. It's government out of control in that state. They haven't yet finished the good fight against 16 oz sodas have they?

try breathing with 4 pathetic people on top of you. it was a murder by all 4/5 officers.