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Forums - Politics Discussion - Where did the Big Bang Come from?

CommonNinja said:

Truth is, scientist don't even know that the big bang happened.

It is just the best theory they have for the Orgin of our universe other than 'in the beginning God".

 

Some scientist even believe that before the big bang there was absolutely nothing, and that the big bang literally created everything (both matter, and all the laws of Physics and Time) from nothing.  The problem is that they don't really have that much proof for it other than that the galexys seem to be moving away from each other for some reason.

There are also many countless other problems with the theory such as how we got all of the elements on the periodic table from just hydrogen.  Some scientist have tried to say that fusion (happens in stars) can explain this, but the problem with that is you can't fuse new elements past Iron.

Another problem with is is that the big bang theory defys the law of entropy (2nd law of therodynamics) which states that the universe, and everything in it naturally tends towards chaos, and that order cannot arise on it's own from chaos unless thier is an inteligent system or creature to harnass that energy.  Raw energy alone (like with the big bang) can only destroy things (just like how the sun causes erosion, or the energy from an atomic bomb is destructive).  To have order, you need a organism/system such as a plant to harness the energy (like sunlight) and use it to create order.

Scientist are still unsure how an explosion that they think happened billions of years ago could have possibly created the immensely orderly systems such as solar systems and even galaxys that we see today.


Even assuming all that, who says a bunch of Middle Eastern goat herders would have any special knowledge of this being or beings that created such an order? 

Who's to say any of the created religons (and there's thousands of them over time) are even remotely close? Maybe a giant group of hyper advance aliens did it and its their design and its something they do all the time because they can. And maybe they were created by something even far more ancient. 

We'd have no way of knowing otherwise. We're basically like a bunch of kids who've never had sex before trying to explain to other kids what sex is like. We're really just bullsh*tting, lol. 



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Torillian said:


Can you see how annoying that answer is to someone scietifically minded though?  Basically everything has to follow logic except when it gets to a religious answer.  You follow the rules of logical debate right up until you can't without losing and then you simply define god in a way that "wins" you the argument.  It's like we're playing checkers and when I make my move you grab the gameboard, smash it on the table, and say god created the big bang.  

Not really.

You see, naturalist will ask "where did God come from" and Christians will answer "God has always exzisted as he is not confined by t-p-s (Time, Space, & Matter).

Naturalist will then argue that that is not a good enough answer as "everything has to have had a beginning". 

 

However, creationist will then as "where did matter come from" or "where did the laws of Science and Logic come from"

And naturalist will either answer:

A:  "they have always exzisted"

B: "they were created by the big bang from nothing"

 

So either way you are leaving simple 'logic' behind when you start to talk about the Orgin of the universe as something (either God or Time, Space & Matter) had to have exzisted forever and never have and orgin, OR the second option (which is stupid in my point of view) is that something had to have spontaniously arose from nothing.



CommonNinja said:

Truth is, scientist don't even know that the big bang happened.

It is just the best theory they have for the Orgin of our universe other than 'in the beginning God".

There are also many countless other problems with the theory such as how we got all of the elements on the periodic table from just hydrogen.  Some scientist have tried to say that fusion (happens in stars) can explain this, but the problem with that is you can't fuse new elements past Iron.

Another problem with is is that the big bang theory defys the law of entropy (2nd law of therodynamics) which states that the universe, and everything in it naturally tends towards chaos, and that order cannot arise on it's own from chaos unless thier is an inteligent system or creature to harnass that energy.  Raw energy alone (like with the big bang) can only destroy things (just like how the sun causes erosion, or the energy from an atomic bomb is destructive).  To have order, you need a organism/system such as a plant to harness the energy (like sunlight) and use it to create order.

Scientist are still unsure how an explosion that they think happened billions of years ago could have possibly created the immensely orderly systems such as solar systems and even galaxys that we see today.

Let me correct these statements:

1) It is right that iron is the element with lowest mass/nuclei relation. This means fusion from iron to heavier nuclei does not release energy but consume it. So in fusion up to iron a star will release energy in form of light, while fusion from iron to heavier elements (mostly through neutron capture) takes away some of the energy inside a star. If that wouldn't be the case, stars would just continue to burn forever (or until all the mass has been transformed to energy).

Also if you look at the elements available on earth most elements up to iron are quiet common, while heavier elements become rarer , which is a result of heavier elements needing more energy(/more captured neutrons) to be produced. The very heavy ones come from supernovae where theres plenty of energy available. 

The production of elements heavier than iron are no mystery at all.

2)The second law of thermodynamics is stated for closed systems! So it would only apply to a universe that is constant in volume. But our universe is expanding! But yes, it is still an open question why the distribution of mass in our universe is not more homogeneous.

 

 

I can totally agree to this: "It is just the best theory they have for the Orgin of our universe other than 'in the beginning God"."

But please don't post false statements! 

Also, if a law of physics doesn't fit to an observation, that does not mean that the only answer left is god but that we need to find a new theory.

Just think of Newtons laws of motion, which seemed accurate at the time. But where found to be wrong for relativistic particles (things close the speed of light). Instead of just giving up on the matter, it was renewed by the theory of relativity.



Soundwave said:
CommonNinja said:

Truth is, scientist don't even know that the big bang happened.

It is just the best theory they have for the Orgin of our universe other than 'in the beginning God".

 

Some scientist even believe that before the big bang there was absolutely nothing, and that the big bang literally created everything (both matter, and all the laws of Physics and Time) from nothing.  The problem is that they don't really have that much proof for it other than that the galexys seem to be moving away from each other for some reason.

There are also many countless other problems with the theory such as how we got all of the elements on the periodic table from just hydrogen.  Some scientist have tried to say that fusion (happens in stars) can explain this, but the problem with that is you can't fuse new elements past Iron.

Another problem with is is that the big bang theory defys the law of entropy (2nd law of therodynamics) which states that the universe, and everything in it naturally tends towards chaos, and that order cannot arise on it's own from chaos unless thier is an inteligent system or creature to harnass that energy.  Raw energy alone (like with the big bang) can only destroy things (just like how the sun causes erosion, or the energy from an atomic bomb is destructive).  To have order, you need a organism/system such as a plant to harness the energy (like sunlight) and use it to create order.

Scientist are still unsure how an explosion that they think happened billions of years ago could have possibly created the immensely orderly systems such as solar systems and even galaxys that we see today.


Even assuming all that, who says a bunch of Middle Eastern goat herders would have any special knowledge of this being or beings that created such an order? 

Who's to say any of the created religons (and there's thousands of them over time) are even remotely close? Maybe a giant group of hyper advance aliens did it and its their design and its something they do all the time because they can. And maybe they were created by something even far more ancient. 

We'd have no way of knowing otherwise. We're basically like a bunch of kids who've never had sex before trying to explain to other kids what sex is like. We're really just bullsh*tting, lol. 


Funny thing is that I never said that God created everything, only suggested that the Big Bang theory is not proven and flawed on several levels.

Whether or not you want to believe in God is a very personal choice, and obivously requires a measure of faith.  

All I was tring to say is that the Big Bang is not proven fact, and that the OP, by asking the question of where the big bang came from is making the assumption that it happened in the first place.  

So the question he should be asking is not "where did it come from?" but rather "did it happen?".



This whole thread is detailing a very old "god of the gaps" argument, whereby the believer asks the non believer a question the non believer doesn't know the answer to, and therefore concludes God must exist because he doesn't have an answer. It is a very old argument, that has been weakened considerably over the years. Originally people would ask, "how do you explain the sun? Don't know? God did it" and so worshipped the sun because it was a mysterious thing. Then people would ask "how do you explain man? Don't know? God did it", because evolution was not understood. As the scientific method has answered these questions, there have been fewer and fewer places to turn. Asking what happened before the big bang is one of the last refuges of this line of questioning. You have to realize that it is no different then any other question you could possibly ask that we don't know the answer to. You might as well as "What made you choose a red shirt today over a blue one? Don't know? God did it.".

Specifically about what came "before" the big bang, the answer is likely scientifically unknowable. The scientific method involves having a hypothesis, making an experiment to either validate or disprove the hypothesis, and running the experiment to test the theory. All the laws of our universe, including time itself, where created during the big bang. Our entire basis of experimentation and validation are based on those laws, and form the basis for the language we use to communicate knowledge. Asking us to explain to you what happened before the big bang would be like asking an English speaker to explain something in French. We don't have the language to do it.




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smakz said:
This whole thread is detailing a very old "god of the gaps" argument, whereby the believer asks the non believer a question the non believer doesn't know the answer to, and therefore concludes God must exist because he doesn't have an answer. It is a very old argument, that has been weakened considerably over the years. Originally people would ask, "how do you explain the sun? Don't know? God did it" and so worshipped the sun because it was a mysterious thing. Then people would ask "how do you explain man? Don't know? God did it", because evolution was not understood. As the scientific method has answered these questions, there have been fewer and fewer places to turn. Asking what happened before the big bang is one of the last refuges of this line of questioning. You have to realize that it is no different then any other question you could possibly ask that we don't know the answer to. You might as well as "What made you choose a red shirt today over a blue one? Don't know? God did it.".

Specifically about what came "before" the big bang, the answer is likely scientifically unknowable. The scientific method involves having a hypothesis, making an experiment to either validate or disprove the hypothesis, and running the experiment to test the theory. All the laws of our universe, including time itself, where created during the big bang. Our entire basis of experimentation and validation are based on those laws, and form the basis for the language we use to communicate knowledge. Asking us to explain to you what happened before the big bang would be like asking an English speaker to explain something in French. We don't have the language to do it.


I believe God made this post. Seriously though, a nice, well reasoned response. 



Cyrus said:

Let me correct these statements:

1) It is right that iron is the element with lowest mass/nuclei relation. This means fusion from iron to heavier nuclei does not release energy but consume it. So in fusion up to iron a star will release energy in form of light, while fusion from iron to heavier elements (mostly through neutron capture) takes away some of the energy inside a star. If that wouldn't be the case, stars would just continue to burn forever (or until all the mass has been transformed to energy).

Also if you look at the elements available on earth most elements up to iron are quiet common, while heavier elements become rarer , which is a result of heavier elements needing more energy(/more captured neutrons) to be produced. The very heavy ones come from supernovae where theres plenty of energy available. 

The production of elements heavier than iron are no mystery at all.

2)The second law of thermodynamics is stated for closed systems! So it would only apply to a universe that is constant in volume. But our universe is expanding! But yes, it is still an open question why the distribution of mass in our universe is not more homogeneous.

 

 

I can totally agree to this: "It is just the best theory they have for the Orgin of our universe other than 'in the beginning God"."

But please don't post false statements! 

Also, if a law of physics doesn't fit to an observation, that does not mean that the only answer left is god but that we need to find a new theory.

Just think of Newtons laws of motion, which seemed accurate at the time. But where found to be wrong for relativistic particles (things close the speed of light). Instead of just giving up on the matter, it was renewed by the theory of relativity.


Not exactly the case, Uranium is one of the highest elements found on the Periodic table, and yet it is just as commonly found around the planit as Tin or Zinc.  

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Uranium-Resources/Supply-of-Uranium/

Which begs the question "how did so much Uranium get here through fusion?"  It is simply hard to believe that fusion could have created each and every element on the periodic table, and then some how a star exploded all of thoese elements onto earth.

Also, if the earth really is billions of years old, wouldn't most of the uranium that came from the supernovas alreay have decayed into Thorium?

Uranium has a half life of about 4 Billion years, which means around the time when the first lifeform was first forming, there would have had to have been at least twice the amount of Uranium on earth as there is today.  Thats a lot of Uranium, especially if you believe it all came from fusion!



MTZehvor said:
VanceIX said:
Mystro-Sama said:

Most Atheists i've spoken to dropped the smartass attitude after that question. Not to mention that they can't seem to answer the question of how an existence without consciousness can create an existence with consciousness.

But in that case, who created the conciousness that created the conciouss existence? 

There wouldn't need to be anyone; if a being exists outside of the universe, it is not bound by the laws that exist within this universe, such as time (and, by extension, the need to have a beginning). 

The same is true of anything, not just a "being". If a rock exists outside the universe, it is not bound by the laws that exist within this universe, such as time.



Depends who you ask M-Theory claims multidimensional branes colliding create a big bang. Big Bangs could just happen. Like virtual particles just appearing and disappearing and endless circle. Our Physicslaws still have holes. We are still not at the point of understanding everything..



CommonNinja said:
Cyrus said:

Also if you look at the elements available on earth most elements up to iron are quiet common, while heavier elements become rarer , which is a result of heavier elements needing more energy(/more captured neutrons) to be produced. The very heavy ones come from supernovae where theres plenty of energy available. 

 


Not exactly the case, Uranium is one of the highest elements found on the Periodic table, and yet it is just as commonly found around the planit as Tin or Zinc.  

http://www.world-nuclear.org/info/Nuclear-Fuel-Cycle/Uranium-Resources/Supply-of-Uranium/

Which begs the question "how did so much Uranium get here through fusion?"  It is simply hard to believe that fusion could have created each and every element on the periodic table, and then some how a star exploded all of thoese elements onto earth.

For the solarsystem look at: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abundance_of_the_chemical_elements#mediaviewer/File:SolarSystemAbundances.png

So generally the trend goes like "The heavier the element the rarer", but with some fluctuation because some elements are more stable than others and also it depends on how much of the lower weight elements are still not fused when a star dies. 

But yes i admit that there's more uranium on earth than i thought.

Nevertheless, the baseline message stays the same: The production of elements heavier than iron is no mystery!