Wrong again DMC4 fan.

Dante has changed in every DMC game. Ninja Theory changed the character because Capcom wanted a hero you could emphathise with. As opposed to this:

As much as you might like DMC4. This character is NOT Dante. It is a poor imitation at best. Even the creator of the DMC series, Hideki Kamiya, has confirmed that the only true Dante is the original character from DMC1. Who was not a goofball. What your reffering to is the camp imposter from the picture above.

Either way blaming Ninja Theory for changing Dante is ridiculous. Dante has changed in every DMC game. Only the original character is the true iteration of Dante. DmC Dante is simply a new iteration of the character. DMC4 Dante is a ridiculous camp jester, he's not like DMC1 Dante what so ever, making those awful homoerotic poses (see above). Failing to understand that is NOT Ninja Theory's fault.

You've certainly made quite a few assumptions in this last post. 

At any rate, yes, you're certainly right, Dante has changed from game to game. However, there's a difference between a character changing in personality as they get older, i.e. character development, and vastly changing a character altogether.

For example, Phoenix Wright from the Ace Attorney series changes quite a bit inbetween games. In the original trilogy, he's a loveable dork who runs a "take down evil" mantra as best he can. In Apollo Justice, he's a shady, disbarred sham who's lost a good portion of his moral compass. In DD, he's an older, wiser attorney who knows what he's doing but still retains some of his old lawyer self. That's a character changing between games. He's still the same character, but his personality shifts.

What would be ridiculous, however, is bringing in a reboot of Ace Attorney, sticking in a Phoenix Wright who smokes, curses at every turn like it's the coolest thing that anyone could ever do, and brings strippers home to his trailer to have casual sex, and then calling that the exact same character as before. The two are absolutely nothing alike. You could remove the name "Phoenix Wright" and no one would even make the correlation.

It's the same way here. While Dante from DMC4 certainly is much more out there than probably any other Dante in the series, he's silly enough that I wouldn't have much trouble recognizing him from DMC1. Same goes with DMC3. The only case where this doesn't really apply is DMC2, and that game was god awful.

Even if Dante DID change dramatically from each game, though, he'd still be an awful character in DmC simply because he fails on all levels as an empathizable or funny character. His idea of cool is to throw every curse word he knows at an enemy, he acts like a complete butthole to everyone, and the game never develops him as a character at all. He just goes from not caring about anything to suddenly caring about a certain girl.

It's not that I blame anyone for changing a character, it's that I'm blaming them for changing a character beyond any point of recognizable personality and changing them in such a god awful way.

However, there's a difference between a character changing in personality as they get older, i.e. character development, and vastly changing a character altogether.

DMC4 Donte is NOT an older version of the same character. He's  a different character althougether. Reuben Langdon who performed voice and motion capture for DMC3 and DMC4 Dante was asked to play DMC4 Donte differently from eairler iterations of the characrer.

In fact DMC1,2,3,4 don't actually work in the same continuity.

I wouldn't have much trouble recognizing him from DMC1

You wouldn't have much trouble recognising him as DMC1 Dante because you started playing DMC with DMC4.

For DMC1 fans such as myself DMC4 Dante is nothing like the original persona what so ever. This has also been confirmed by the series creator and the voice/motion actor who played Dante for DMC3 and 4.

The game never develops him as a character at all

We both know that DmC Dante develops deeper than previous iterations of the character. The reason you need to pretend DmC is the problem is to excuse DMC4. If you pin the blame on DmC you think you can distract someone from questioning the abysimal DMC4. Dosen't work like that. DMC4 is held to the same standard, you can't excuse something for nothing being Devil May Cry, yet condemn DmC for not being Devil May Cry either.

It's that I'm blaming them for changing a character beyond any point of recognizable personality and changing them in such a god awful way.

Then why did you excuse that bizzare camp imposter DMC4 Dante?

DMC4 Donte is NOT an older version of the same character. He's  a different character althougether. Reuben Langdon who performed voice and motion capture for DMC3 and DMC4 Dante was asked to play DMC4 Donte differently from eairler iterations of the characrer.

So your argument is that just because the motion capture person and voice actor are different, means he's an entirely new character?

Gee, wish I'd figured that out earlier. I guess that means Darth Vader in the original Star Wars Trilogy and Anakin Skywalker in the god awful prequel trilogy are different people as well. I can rest easy knowing that a good villain wasn't ruined.

You wouldn't have much trouble recognising him as DMC1 Dante because you started playing DMC with DMC4.

For DMC1 fans such as myself DMC4 Dante is nothing like the original persona what so ever. 

I didn't start playing DMC with DMC4. I played DMC1 first, then went to DMC3 and afterwards DMC4. Tried to get into DMC2, but it never clicked. If you would kindly, stop making assumptions about what people have played.

We both know that DmC Dante develops deeper than previous iterations of the character. The reason you need to pretend DmC is the problem is to excuse DMC4. If you pin the blame on DmC you think you can distract someone from questioning the abysimal DMC4. Dosen't work like that. DMC4 is held to the same standard, you can't excuse something for nothing being Devil May Cry, yet condemn DmC for not being Devil May Cry either.

It does? Could've fooled me. Let's see, he starts the game as a pretentious dirtbag who spouts curse words left and right...

...and by the end of the game he's still a pretentious dirtbag who spouts curse words left and right. 

Ninja Theory character development must be entirely different than regular character development.

Anyway, no, the same complaint doesn't apply, becuase Dante in the previous DMC series isn't meant to be some sort of deep, empathizable character. He's supposed to be a fun character to play with who's humorous. Not to say that he's never serious, but gosh, if you're going to claim that there's no way to recognize DMC4 Dante from DMC1 Dante, I'm going to have to question whether you actually played either game.

DMC1 Dante spouts enough goofy one liners to easily make it his most memorable trait. I'm pretty sure this needs no introduction.

To summarize, the reason the old Dante doesn't get held to the same standards is because he's not trying to achieve those standards. He's never meant to be some sort of deep character that we can all see ourselves in. Getting mad at older Dante for not being an incredibly developed character is like getting mad at the Last of Us because it doesn't have as much jumping as a Mario game.

So your argument is that just because the motion capture person and voice actor are different, means he's an entirely new character?

No, the motion and voice actor was ASKED to play the character differently from his previous iterations. Thats why he's a different character from the first game. Even if he didn't say that, you only need to play the DMC games to realise that Dante changes in every game. DmC is another iteration of the character.

In the way Michael Keaton's Batman was very different from George Clooney's. Prending DMC4 Dante hasn't changed to excuse DMC4 is retarded.

Anyway, no, the same complaint doesn't apply, becuase Dante in the previous DMC series isn't meant to be some sort of deep, empathizable character.

DmC Dante is a different Dante in a different iteration of the series. DmC is not Devil May Cry, its Devil may Cry. Its a reboot that takes place in a seperate continuity, this Dante is different because he's intended to be that way.

Not to say that he's never serious, but gosh, if you're going to claim that there's no way to recognize DMC4 Dante from DMC1 Dante, I'm going to have to question whether you actually played either game.

If your going to claim theres no way to regonise elements of the previous Dante's in DmC Dante, then I'm going to question whether you actually know anything about Devil May Cry. 

Getting mad at older Dante for not being an incredibly developed character

DMC1 and DMC3 Dante did actually feature some character development. The writers did make the player emphatic with Dante's story somewhat. The reason you didn't know that is because you only started playing DMC with DMC4. No one's 'mad' at older Dante. We're confused as to how you can mistake this camp imposter making homosexual poses as Dante:

It always makes me sad to see Ninja Theory struggle as much as they have. I'm from the UK so the reality is we've seen a lot of our video game development talent dry up in the past 15 years, and it'd suck to see another team forced out. While they upset a lot of DMC fans the reality is they made 3 really good of which no were ever really 'hits'.

I really liked Enslaved and think it had everything it needed to be a success, but unfortunately Namco were their publisher - and Namco are a bit of a disaster with publishing anything outside of Japan. DmC was a great game too, but they alienated a core fanbase with it - if it'd had been a new IP with that gameplay and visual style it'd probably have stood a better chance. I never got to play Heavenly Sword but I feel it was just caught up in the poor PS3 launch, maybe would of faired better if it'd had been a year later.

I know this interview was a misquote and they have some form of next-gen AAA thing lined up, I just hope it does see the light of day cause they can make great games and I'm sure they're capable of making a hit. The hack N slash brawler genre thing is pretty much limited to God of War, DMC and Bayonetta nowadays and to me really needs someone to inject something new into it (Ascension was so, so, tired) so hopefully they can find what it needs.

This seems to be a point which you're having an incredibly difficult time grasping, so I'll go over it once more.

It's not a matter of whether there are any recognizable elements in a character or not. It's a matter of whether there are enough. Using the example I mentioned before, if Phoenix Wright was remade into a pot smoking, drinking, dancing polka bear, but kept his sarcastic sense of humor, that would NOT be enough recognizable traits. 

It's the same way that old Dante keeps his silly, over the top sense of humor with cheesy one liners in every iteration of the games except for DMC2. Is he crazier in DMC4? Sure, I'm not going to deny that. He's certainly different than before. There's a difference though between altering a character somewhat and drastically overhauling a character.

Not that I would have minded a dramatic overhaul of Dante, except that everything DmC did to him was for the worst. They took his funny one liners and turned them into a string of curse words, they took him from a successful businessman to someone who brings strippers to his trailer to have casual sex with, and his new idea of cool is to just hurl insults without any sense of subtlety or placement. 

 Prending DMC4 Dante hasn't changed to excuse DMC4 is retarded.

Prending?

Assuming you mean pretending, no, once again, I'm not pretending that he hasn't changed. I've never once said that DMC4 Dante is the same, just that he's similar. Much, much more similar than DmC Dante, I might add.

DmC Dante is a different Dante in a different iteration of the series. DmC is not Devil May Cry, its Devil may Cry. Its a reboot that takes place in a seperate continuity, this Dante is different because he's intended to be that way.

Which is exactly my point. DmC Dante is supposed to be a more empathizable Dante, who is supposed to tell a deep, meaningful story and make a connection to the player. It completely fails on every level there. That's why it's poorly done.

DMC1 and DMC3 Dante did actually feature some character development. The writers did make the player emphatic with Dante's story somewhat. The reason you didn't know that is because you only started playing DMC with DMC4. No one's 'mad' at older Dante. 

Yeah, character development in DMC. I remember that and how absolutely great it was, with brilliant lines such as:

"I should've been the one to bring your dark soul to liiiiggghhhhhttttt!!!"

and

"And now...my soul...is saying it wants to stop you!"

Yeah, DMC4 was missing a whole lot by not leaving that in.

Anyway, even if the older Devil May Cry games somehow did have amazing character development, that still wouldn't be a valid complaint. DMC4 takes place a fair amount of time after DMC1, and even longer after DMC3. There's no official time scales involved, but I'd wager it's at least ten years between 3 and 4, even longer if you subscribe to the "Nero is Vergil's son" theory. 

By this point in time, Dante's been through so many traumatic moments in his life, losing both a brother and his mother, that his character is essentially developed to its fullest point. There isn't much the writers could do with his character to dramatically change him, and even if they did, it would almost assuredly be a step back, like Raiden halfway through MGR.

I don't want to only reference Ace Attorney, but once again I think it works as a great example here. PW hardly receives any character development in the latest game, and that's because he's gone through so many crazy experiences that his character has been developed to its fullest. There's nowhere to go with his character in terms of meaningful development, and changing it would just be moving backwards along the maturity arc.

It's not a matter of whether there are any recognizable elements in a character or not. It's a matter of whether there are enough. Using the example I mentioned before, if Phoenix Wright was remade into a pot smoking, drinking, dancing polka bear, but kept his sarcastic sense of humor, that would NOT be enough recognizable traits.

Not interested in Phoneix Wright.

Whether there are enough to you or not, you seem to failing to grasp, thats your opinion. Capcom Japan already confirmed they felt the character they created with Ninja Theory contained sufficent traits of the previous Dante's, while still maintaining a fresh take on the character. If your unhappy with that I suggest you take it up with Capcom Japan.

It's the same way that old Dante keeps his silly, over the top sense of humor with cheesy one liners in every iteration of the games.  Yeah, character development in DMC. I remember that and how absolutely great it was, with brilliant lines such as

Wrong again. DMC1 Dante was never cheesy. He never went over the top. The reason you need to claim he did was to undermine previous iterations of Dante. The reason you need to do that is because DMC4 was so poor quality on its own, the only way you can condemn DmC and praise DMC4 is by undermining the previous games in the franchise. Its typical behvaiour from fans who only started playing DMC with DMC4, thinking that they can impose whatever rules they want because they wanted that Twilight game to continue.

There's a difference though between altering a character somewhat and drastically overhauling a character.

DmC is a reboot, a seperate continutity. The point of that was to overhaul the character... Have you not been paying attention DMC4 fan?

I've never once said that DMC4 Dante is the same, just that he's similar. Much, much more similar than DmC Dante, I might add.

There in lies your problem. DMC4 is supposed to be the same character in that series of games. Hence its unacceptable they made such drastic changes to him. DmC is a reboot, hence theres no correlation between why he would be exactly the same as DMC1 Dante. I'm grateful Ninja Theory didn't turn him into a camp jester, with homosexual red cowboy boots, making homoerotic poses. That is simply not Dante.

DMC4 takes place a fair amount of time after DMC1, and even longer after DMC3. There's no official time scales involved, but I'd wager it's at least ten years between 3 and 4, even longer if you subscribe to the "Nero is Vergil's son" theory.

Lol. You have to make up stuff to justify DMC4 being a good game. It was abyismal writing at best. Nero was an emo. His origin was never explained in the game because the game featured a terrible story.

You don't even realise for DMC3 and DMC4 to exist Capcom have to remove the pre-exisiting DMC novels from cannon. The original DMC creators never made sequels to the DMC games, hence why the timeline and the style of the games is inconsistant throughout the series. Yet you ignored that because you started playing with DMC4.

The simple truth is Capcom didn't know how to continue Dante's story, hence why they decided to make Nero the emo the new main character. Capcom went back and decided they didn't want to continue the Twilight game. Blaming Ninja Theory for changes they were asked to make is ridiculous.

Whether there are enough to you or not, you seem to failing to grasp, thats your opinion.

And you seem to have forgotten that this is a debate based ENTIRELY on opinion. Though I might add it's an opinion shared by me and virtually everyone who spurned DmC.

Wrong again. DMC1 Dante was never cheesy.

Pahahahahahaha.

AHAHAHAHAHAHA.

AAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Oh you were serious.

He never went over the top.

Yes, precisely. Getting stabbed all the way through with a sword and then slowly floating yourself out of it, or telling a gigantic bird to "flock off," or screaming at the top of his lungs about dark souls and light after running into a dead girl, or flying away from an exploding castle in an airplane in true RE fashion is most definitely not over the top.

The reason you need to claim he did was to undermine previous iterations of Dante. The reason you need to do that is because DMC4 was so poor quality on its own, the only way you can condemn DmC and praise DMC4 is by undermining the previous games in the franchise. Its typical behvaiour from fans who only started playing DMC with DMC4, thinking that they can impose whatever rules they want because they wanted that Twilight game to continue.

If I was really concerned about DmC as a game, all I would need to do is talk about its combat and the massive step backwards that took, or the awful attempt at writing and a societal commentary, or the insipid focus on the platforming, or the awful boss fights that even DMC2 did a better job at. I'm picking a very small window at which to attack DmC on, and its through their characterization of Dante. 

DmC is a reboot, a seperate continutity. The point of that was to overhaul the character... Have you not been paying attention DMC4 fan?

I've been paying perfect attention, but apparently, you haven't.

If you would, recall the string of logic that led us to this. Your claim was that Dante was changed in every game, saying DMC4 Dante was just as dramatically changed as DmC Dante. I countered that by saying no, DMC4 Dante was recognizable and DmC Dante was much less so. You responded with a straw man of ridiculous proportions, and I countered that by explaining the difference between altering a character to make up for a gap in time and completely changing it.

...and now you're accusing me of forgetting it's a reboot or something. 

There in lies your problem. DMC4 is supposed to be the same character in that series of games. Hence its unacceptable they made such drastic changes to him. DmC is a reboot, hence theres no correlation between why he would be exactly the same as DMC1 Dante. I'm grateful Ninja Theory didn't turn him into a camp jester, with homosexual red cowboy boots, making homoerotic poses. That is simply not Dante.

Never mind, you were paying attention. Then I really have to wonder why you even bothered to ask the above question.

At any rate, beyond this point it's entirely subjective. Though quite honestly, especially considering DMC3, I'm not sure why DMC4 is such a massive step up in craziness level for Dante. I thought the two flowed fine.

Lol. You have to make up stuff to justify DMC4 being a good game. It was abyismal writing at best. Nero was an emo. His origin was never explained in the game because the game featured a terrible story.

I never said it had a good story. In fact, I think splitting the protagonists was one of the worst parts of the game. It should have been either Dante or Nero solely, and if it was Nero, he should've gotten a bit more development.

That said, DMC4 is enjoyable because it's the most refined version of the DMC combat system to date, particularly with Dante. On the fly style switching, being able to flip between any weapon at any time, 60 FPS, pure hack and slash bliss. It looks beautiful, and it performs wonderfully.

You don't even realise for DMC3 and DMC4 to exist Capcom have to remove the pre-exisiting DMC novels from cannon. The original DMC creators never made sequels to the DMC games, hence why the timeline and the style of the games is inconsistant throughout the series. Yet you ignored that because you started playing with DMC4.

Well, first off, since you're insisting on believing things that simply aren't true, I'm going to belive that from here on out you are a sparkly pink unicorn with a fetish for donuts.

How are you, Mr. Sparkly Pink Unicorn?

Secondly, are we discussing Dante at this point, or DMC4's story? Like I said, I don't care for DMC4's story. That's not the topic of debate here. If you want to make a rant against DMC4 as a game, go do so on another thread. DMC4's Dante is really the only part that wasn't gameplay/graphics that I enjoyed, and to that end I'll certainly defend him against Donte.

But if you just want to yell about DMC4's story, then go do so elsewhere.

Goddamn it. I enjoyed the hell out of DmC and was really hoping for a sequel. Heavenly sword was also pretty fantastic for its time.