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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Penello specifies why X1vsPS4 performance difference is overstated

selnor1983 said:
This guy pennello originally answered some comments on tweetz and forums. Hes simply following up.
Its clear xbox one is designed differently than ps4.


From an Architectural perspective of the CPU/GPU, both consoles are more similar than they are different.
So I wouldn't really say it was designed differently at all, they would have petitioned AMD with a list of minor changes and that would have been it.

Where the consoles *really* deviate is in the memory subsystem, Aka. System and eSRAM and it's accompanying co-processors.
But, that could be argued for cost reasons, DDR3 is stupidly cheap, same with the Cut-down Radeon the Xbox uses to save on Transisters, which was spent on the eSRAM instead.



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Adinnieken said:
mantlepiecek said:

I think people are forgetting the under-mentioned cloud in here. That is very important too. I heard somewhere that it boosts a machine's performance 40 times.

Was this really necessary?  How exactly did you positively contribute to the conversation?

Yes it was necessary. A definite feature that was being missed by many.



Mmmfishtacos said:
Machiavellian said:
Mmmfishtacos said:

That's for one Line, Onion + passes another 10GB/s would you not add them togeter for 30gb/s? Seems like Albert loves to added stuff and not do if for ps4.

Its not the same.  The X1 has 30GBs directly to ram, the PS4 has 20GBs directly to ram.  The Onion is 10GBs between the CPU and GPU cache

Actually the X1 has direct access to the ESRAM so can snoop its content just like the PS4 can do the same with the 10GBs to CPU/GPU cache.

While the CPU and GPU are coherent, it appears the all processors, CPU, GPU, co-Processors and System IO are coherent within the X1.  There is a lot going on in the X1 which shows MS put a lot of thought in the system.  Hopfully we can see the samething from Sony if they release more info.

Makes sense. but how does that transalet in to graphical performance. Considering everything else on the PS4 is stil higher? 

We have to rememeber that all game code isn't just the picture you see on the screen.  Syncing up animation, physics, audio etc is better for the entire experience of the hardware and what is being executed.  Basically you can have appliations that all run and share information for a complete experience.



Adinnieken said:
The problem is your assumption that this is about the Xbox One being better than the PS4.  It isn't.


It's about the performance features of the Xbox One mitigating the specification advantages of the PS4.  Does it make the Xbox One 1:1 to the PS4's specifications?  Nope.  But it does narrow the performance gap.

12 CUs will never be more than 18 CUs, but 12 CUs operating faster than 18 CUs will narrow the performance advantage of those 18 CUs.  That was Pennello's point. 


You say mitigation ? I say by how much?

How much a 53 mhz increase on a gpu mitigates anything as drastic than a gpu with +6 CUs / +24 TMUs/ +16 ROPs and +108 GB/s of primary bandwidth

Theres s a way to precisely define every type of meaningfull performance in a gpu. It has been used for decades, it was not invented by Sony or to drive xbox fans mad. This is how it works, it's how you calculate gpu performance, period.

The good thing here is that we comparing oranges to oranges because it's the same GCN architecture, it makes things really easier. When hardware website review GPU they do the Gflops math, fillrate Gpixel/Gtexel count and so on. This is real world numbers which translate really really well in benchmarks (and thats why they have meaning in first place), specially with the same architecture.

The X1 gained something like 80 Gflops with that 53 Mhz increase, less than 1Gpixel/s,.. that's it, im happily taking it, but let's not try to present this as something incredible, cause it's really not.

It's certainly the best effort MS could do at this point by clockin the gpu a bit higher without interferring too much with the tdp and the cooling system they had in place. Maybe they didn't even touch the voltage for that kind of upclock. (Same applies for the cpu)

I think frankly they aimed too low from the start with the X1 hardware, that's my opinion, so they didn't have much margin to do anything else or more. It's  a well optimized system with some potential for a close box though.



selnor1983 said:
Sorry but some people dont believe anything unless sony says so. Its true. Give it a rest people.

This response is accurate and very mature. Well done pennello.
To those saying microsoft give it a rest. Sony have talked about power and graphics way more than microsoft. Also trying to take regular jabs at microsoft recently.

This guy pennello originally answered some comments on tweetz and forums. Hes simply following up.
Its clear xbox one is designed differently than ps4.

The games this gen will only prove microsoft right. Ps4 will not have some great advantage that fans want to believe.

Xbox one with a bit of different programming will look just as good if not better.

I will predict considering 343i is full of top graphics engineers in the industry that halo 5 will take the lead as top graphics so far I the gen when its released. What those guys did with halo4 s engine was incredible.

Penello had good intentions. However some of the information he gives is not accurate.

Also the systems were designed very similarly, the only major difference is how memory is handled. Not sure how you came to that conclusion?



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http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/09/microsoft-exec-defends-xbox-one-from-accusations-its-underpowered/

 



^^ was just about to post that. my favorite is "what the hell does that even mean?"



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selnor1983 said:
Sorry but some people dont believe anything unless sony says so. Its true. Give it a rest people.

This response is accurate and very mature. Well done pennello.
To those saying microsoft give it a rest. Sony have talked about power and graphics way more than microsoft. Also trying to take regular jabs at microsoft recently.

This guy pennello originally answered some comments on tweetz and forums. Hes simply following up.
Its clear xbox one is designed differently than ps4.

The games this gen will only prove microsoft right. Ps4 will not have some great advantage that fans want to believe.

Xbox one with a bit of different programming will look just as good if not better.

I will predict considering 343i is full of top graphics engineers in the industry that halo 5 will take the lead as top graphics so far I the gen when its released. What those guys did with halo4 s engine was incredible.

Yes some people will only believe is MS say so or MisterXmedia! Give it a rest

The response from Penello is very immature and full of downright lies and MS spin.

Sony have only ever stated that they have created the most powerful console with 1.8tflops of power. They have never mentioned the X180 or a comparison to it. That is all MS own doing

What do you think Cerny and Yoshida won't get asked questions about if the PS4 is more powerful than X180? They have the sense to either not to reply or if they do to at least know what they are talking about.

It isn't Sony making the noises or the comparisons but the 3rd party developers. They are the ones with the dev kits so they are the ones making the comparisons.

Sony will have an advantage in power this gen. They have great first party studios to take advantage of that power too. You can argue it ill your blue in the face but the truth will emerge.

Your right MS will use some secret sauce or phantom clouds(PR spin to fool the weak minded) but i'm sure Sony will have optomizations and code of their own to. You just need to see games like Uncharted,Last of Us and God of war to know that!

I predict that Sony will pull away from X180 games especially in 2nd gen titles!



petalpusher said:
Zappykins said:

There is so much more that 7950 has better.  So it should have a higher performance.  But even with all those advantages, it just over doubles performance, even with nearly three times the CU Cores.  It should be much higher. 

oh it works with the HD 7850 vs HD 7770 too (the HD 7770 still have way higher clock). I just took the extreme example that produces a 100% increase in performance with CU running at way lower clock. In fact it works with every gpu in GCN architecture, if you scale up the CU count, it performs better not on paper but in real world performance, and on the contrary, i would add, it just continue to scale up really well if you have more BW and ROPs in conjonction, just like the PS4 have. Between 7770/7790 and 7850/7870 there s a significant gap, it's a  50% real world performance difference, sometimes even more.

So try to spin the CU advantage over frequency or inefficiency, is just ridiculous.

And lets keep in mind the PS4's GPU have 18 CU, not 16 like the HD 7850, also more TMUs (+4), and more bandwidth than a HD 7870 (145 vs 176 GB/s),  ACEs customizations,..

Just a few days ago, we were debating the funny assumption that the X1 would get a 4.8 Tflops stacked "dgpu" (that was good laugh), now we re back to hd 7770/7790 level that would magically perform better than gpus with 50% more CUs and 100% more ROPs.

Xbox extremists always deliver in hardware discussions.

I completely agree with the highlighted part, but have you read what you are saying?  You say it doesn't work and doesn't matter, but then it magically matters on the PS4.

The 7790 has nearly three times the CU's of the 7950, yet is barely twice as powerful.  So CU's don't make the significant change would would expect on the 7950.  Why does it matter on the GPU cards but not on consoles?  Isn't that what you are saying or do you mean something different.  Not trying to be hostile, just seems contradictory. 



 

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selnor1983 said:
Sorry but some people dont believe anything unless sony says so. Its true. Give it a rest people.

This response is accurate and very mature. Well done pennello.
To those saying microsoft give it a rest. Sony have talked about power and graphics way more than microsoft. Also trying to take regular jabs at microsoft recently.

This guy pennello originally answered some comments on tweetz and forums. Hes simply following up.
Its clear xbox one is designed differently than ps4.

The games this gen will only prove microsoft right. Ps4 will not have some great advantage that fans want to believe.

Xbox one with a bit of different programming will look just as good if not better.

I will predict considering 343i is full of top graphics engineers in the industry that halo 5 will take the lead as top graphics so far I the gen when its released. What those guys did with halo4 s engine was incredible.

The thing is we do know that one console is able to run things at a higher frame rate and a bit better than the other.  For many reason you have highlighted, I think it is more likely the one with the slighly lower powered GPU than the one many people are assuming. 

Microsoft has done some absolutely amazing things with DirectX 9, which came out way back in 2002 and until recently, has held up remarkable well to everything but the latest super powered Gaming Computers using DirectX 11.  They refined DirectX 9 to 9C so it would be a mature and stable platform when the Xbox 360 came out.  And as you reminded us, Halo 4 won many best graphics awards, and looks great. Halo 5 will also run at 60fps, which should make it even better.

They started over in many ways with DirectX 10, which has then evolved to DirectX 11 and now is refined as DirectX 11.2.  Sure I wish they both had the 2.5 Tflops GPU's that Tim Sweeney wanted, but I still think they will be amazing with what they have. Plus, 2.5 isn't really that much more powerful due to the laws of diminishing returns.

We just have to wait and see which one is more amazing.  I have a feeling a number of people are not going to be happy.



 

Really not sure I see any point of Consol over PC's since Kinect, Wii and other alternative ways to play have been abandoned. 

Top 50 'most fun' game list coming soon!

 

Tell me a funny joke!