godf said: If you didn't change what you meant, your original reply to Andir was utterly irrelevent and misleading. Andir did not insist on "God to prove his existence undeniably", that was you. And you then went on to criticise that notion. You claimed "your scenario has two possibile outcomes", seemingly concluding it would be impossible for Andir to have a chat with God and decide he was real, without surrendering his free will. How could you possibly justify that conclusion?

Just making sure it's not confusing here. I'm pretty sure you meant me, and not Acumen.

@ andir: How right you are. Whoops.

"The only issue is if you think that one has to know only ONE single possible outcome."

It's no less a problem if God is till judging the millions of possible outcomes. In fact, probably even worse. It means every time you could decide to commit a mortal sin, that will be another timeline created, in which you'll definatly end up damned. What an ammusing thought. I think you've made things look far worse for God by bringing in a theory of the multiverse. If I were you, I'd try and back-track, through reference to one true, eternal soul, picking its way throught this web of possibilties you've created.

tk1989 said: haha, i love this thread... honestly, the only time that anyone can "prove" that god is real is if God decided to come down to earth and prove himself.. There has never been and there isnt any proof of God. I personally find it hilarious that aethiests need to prove that god isnt real, as he is about as real as the fairies at the bottom of my garden. This thread has been made on total assumptions, as are all god arguments.

That's what I said too. If there ever was something that should be regarded as a god it should be swiss chocolate. It created the universe and humans and the air we breathe. He is also so generous he allows humans to eat him. See what i did there?

Double post.  Razzmatazz!

Grey Acumen said: godf said: The problem with having an all knowing, all powerful creator; and then believing that he can condemn his creation, is more interesting anyway. When God started the big bang and sent matter spiraling through the universe, he knew it would lead to every sin you are going to commit. When he reaches down to create you soul at the point of conception, he knows whether he's creating somone he will later damn or bless. Seems a little unfair, eh? Also, teh idea of knowing everything negating free will is also erronious. The only issue is if you think that one has to know only ONE single possible outcome. On the theory that every choice made creates an alternate path that the universe takes on the timeline, then every possible result of every possible choice could be tracked and followed. "IF you take this action, then this will happen. IF you take this other action, something else will happen. Etc" There are an infinite number of possible choices to be made, but God is infinite and thus would be able to catalogue every result of every choice, and likely have a good feel for which choices are likely to be made as well. The choice itself is still up to thos emaking that choice though.

OK, but your God is not only all-knowing and all-seeing, but all-creating.

He created the universe, having complete perfect control over what he was creating at that time. Having, as he does, complete perfect knowledge, foresight, understanding, and awareness, he knew at that moment of creation every sin that would ever be committed by the free-willed individuals he was going to cause the creation of. He chose to go ahead and not create the universe differently.

Therefore, your God (assuming He exists) ought to get equal credit for every deed GOOD OR BAD that anyone has ever done or will ever do for all time. God is (indirectly) responsible for every sin ever.

godf said: @ andir: How right you are. Whoops. "The only issue is if you think that one has to know only ONE single possible outcome." It's no less a problem if God is till judging the millions of possible outcomes. In fact, probably even worse. It means every time you could decide to commit a mortal sin, that will be another timeline created, in which you'll definatly end up damned. What an ammusing thought. I think you've made things look far worse for God by bringing in a theory of the multiverse. If I were you, I'd try and back-track, through reference to one true, eternal soul, picking its way throught this web of possibilties you've created.

I said POSSIBILITIES. All knowing would be able to trace all those possibilities and keep track of them WITHOUT them being real. It is your choice that would determine the real outcome. I never said anything about all alternate realities actually existing, simply that in being all knowing, those alternate possibilities would be able to be known.

And of course he is all creating as well, hence he IS partly responsible for when you do something wrong, just as a parent is seen as being partly responsible for their child misbehaving, but that doesn't change the fact that the child is still responsible as well, and in order to stop being a child, they have to accept more of that responsibility for themselves. That does NOT mean they have to refuse to admit that much of what they know is owed to their parents though.

*sighs * I'm seriously getting tired of people claiming I'm saying something when I'm totally not saying that.

My issue with andir is that he says "all I'd need is for him to show up" Well, maybe he already has. Were you listening properly, do YOU know what God looks like? You don't want to accept god as existing, so how are you supposed to recognize god when he says anything. Are you seriously claiming that some guy in a white robe and a beard with glowing skin who happened to have good info on you would convince you that God existed? You wouldn't wonder people have different colored skin if they're supposed to be created in his image, you wouldn't wonder why he spoke a specific language? Forgive my disbelief

That's rediculous, if you knew all the possible out comes, but not the one that will be the actual out come you are not all knowing. The only way to be all knowing is to know exactly what all outcomes will be and know exactly all decisions everyone will make at every time, every where.

If it is absolutely true that person A will pick option B under the set of circumstances, he will not and can not pick pick C. If he picked C, then the original premise was false.

Since an all knowing being would know they would pick option B, then there it would be absolutely true that person A would pick option B and there would be no choice in the matter.

Its not complicated. If I know the outcome of every die roll, there is no randomness to the dice. They are set in stone prior to any rolling. There is nothing that can change what they will be.

Grey Acumen said: My issue with andir is that he says "all I'd need is for him to show up" Well, maybe he already has. Were you listening properly, do YOU know what God looks like? You don't want to accept god as existing, so how are you supposed to recognize god when he says anything. Are you seriously claiming that some guy in a white robe and a beard with glowing skin who happened to have good info on you would convince you that God existed? You wouldn't wonder people have different colored skin if they're supposed to be created in his image, you wouldn't wonder why he spoke a specific language? Forgive my disbelief

If God were all knowing and powerful, he would know what I think he looks like and present himself in a manner that would fit my image of him and speak in a language that I could understand. I thought that was obvious.

Or are you suggesting that even though God is completely powerful and omniscent, that he cannot tell what I'm thinking? If that's the case, then how would he hear silent prayer? How would he tell if you really meant to do something or you are lying to him when you ask for forgiveness?

Final-Fan said: Grey Acumen said: godf said: The problem with having an all knowing, all powerful creator; and then believing that he can condemn his creation, is more interesting anyway. When God started the big bang and sent matter spiraling through the universe, he knew it would lead to every sin you are going to commit. When he reaches down to create you soul at the point of conception, he knows whether he's creating somone he will later damn or bless. Seems a little unfair, eh? Also, teh idea of knowing everything negating free will is also erronious. The only issue is if you think that one has to know only ONE single possible outcome. On the theory that every choice made creates an alternate path that the universe takes on the timeline, then every possible result of every possible choice could be tracked and followed. "IF you take this action, then this will happen. IF you take this other action, something else will happen. Etc" There are an infinite number of possible choices to be made, but God is infinite and thus would be able to catalogue every result of every choice, and likely have a good feel for which choices are likely to be made as well. The choice itself is still up to thos emaking that choice though. OK, but your God is not only all-knowing and all-seeing, but all-creating. He created the universe, having complete perfect control over what he was creating at that time. Having, as he does, complete perfect knowledge, foresight, understanding, and awareness, he knew at that moment of creation every sin that would ever be committed by the free-willed individuals he was going to cause the creation of. He chose to go ahead and not create the universe differently. Therefore, your God (assuming He exists) ought to get equal credit for every deed GOOD OR BAD that anyone has ever done or will ever do for all time. God is (indirectly) responsible for every sin ever.

And of course he is all creating as well, hence he IS partly responsible for when you do something wrong, just as a parent is seen as being partly responsible for their child misbehaving, but that doesn't change the fact that the child is still responsible as well, and in order to stop being a child, they have to accept more of that responsibility for themselves. That does NOT mean they have to refuse to admit that much of what they know is owed to their parents though.

Wait, is that supposed to be your rebuttal? As CrashMan said, that's ridiculous. It so completely fails to answer my point that it never occurred to me that it was a response to me until CrashMan posted. You seem to forget that God is supposed to be all-knowing. Parents are not. God knows everything that happens to you, affecting your life and giving you input for your decisions. He knows exactly how you think, so He knows what those decisions will be. He knew the same about your parents, and their parents, etc. etc. back to the beginning of the universe, and His foresight NEVER EVER gets blurry no matter how far into the future you go from the moment of creation because He had perfect control over His actions (so there is no chance that anything happened unintentionally).

God can predict what every single person on the planet will be doing AND THINKING a million years from now, or a billion years from now, more easily than you can predict that a ball you drop on a paved hillside will roll downhill, and He could also see that at the moment of creation. And He did, because God sees everything. That's the fucking difference between your God and parents of children that grow up to do whatever. And I'm honestly surprised you need to be told that.

If parents knew everything a child would ever do from the moment of its conception, or BEFORE they even conceived it, and that "everything" included raping and killing a dozen people, and they did nothing to stop it, then yeah I would be inclined to hold them more responsible than I do the HUMAN parents of serial killers.  

@ acumen

Andir said: "God would have to manifest himself in front of me, answer a few questions about my being, and my life and answer them correctly. I would ask him to describe my innermost secrets."

I think he'd have noticed if that had happened.

You then replied, claiming "your scenario has two possibile outcomes", that one of them was "God to prove his existence undeniably", and the other, that Andir reject god.

Either you'd originally meant "God to prove his existence undeniably" in a way that denied free will, which would make your reply massively stupid. Or else you'd meant "God to prove his existence undeniably" to mean 'God to provide very strong evidence', and later changed your meaning to one which ruled out free will, which would be deceptive, wriggly debating.

"hence he IS partly responsible for when you do something wrong"

Surely he's completely responsible. He created you in such a way, that he was certain you would commit the sins you do.

I liked the idea of an omnipotent God "likely have a good feel" about which decisions would be made. Likely have a good feel? Classic. Not so all knowing then? But he insists he is?... Oh no.