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Forums - Politics Discussion - People or Religion, who corrupts who?

 

People or Religion, who corrupts who?

Religion causes people to... 25 18.12%
 
People want to do bad thi... 69 50.00%
 
It's a two way street, t... 33 23.91%
 
See results 11 7.97%
 
Total:138
happydolphin said:
Scoobes said:
happydolphin said:
Scoobes said:

It's harder to manipulate people into doing violent acts through disbelief whereas it's easier to manipulate people if you can make them believe they're doing it for a greater power/good. That's what I meant by tool. 

In this respect any belief system is more powerful a tool than a lack of belief.

What about eugenics?
The power of belief is a force to be reckoned with, it can be powerful for good and very powerful for bad. The people who followed Hitler believed in the greatness of their race, whether it was under a veil of divinity or not, the point was that they held an ideal and it drove the nation towards some of the greatest atrocities our world has seen.

The power of belief need not require religion.

I never said it did. Even if religion didn't exist, excuses will be made for acts of violence and there are plenty of examples of this throughout history. My two points were:

1. Atheism is a lack of belief and is therefore not a useful tool to manipulate people into carrying out violent acts.

2. Religion is one of if not the most powerful tool for manipulating large groups of people as it is an incredibly powerful belief system that is ingrained in people from a young age and continues across generations (moreso then other ideologies).

Take your eugenics example; a non-religious, social philosophy/pseudoscience used to perpetuate atrocious acts of violence. Who actually believes in eugenics and actively carries out "tests" anymore? Over the course of a century, viscious acts done in the name of eugenics have more or less stopped. A new excuse/tool has to be found (and sadly will in due course). That's not going to happen with religion; it's ingrained in society over multiple generations and is a deeply held personal belief system. If someone wants to manipulate people then religion becomes an easy way to do so by twisting religious texts to fit an agenda.

Eugenics was used in history by non-religious people to push an idealistic vision of genetics of certain races. It didn't need to be religious to cause atrocities and that's my point.

Like I said, I wasn't trying to insinuate that it's only religious belief that gets used as an excuse for violent acts. I've seen the Dachau camp the Nazis used as a template for all their camps as well as the killing fields left by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. It doesn't need to be religious belief for violence to occur (the human race can be depressingly sick at times).

All I'm saying is that religion is one of the more powerful belief systems and also the easiest to manipulate people with.



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ishiki said:
i corrupt everyone.

I vote to add ishiki to the poll



Scoobes said:

Like I said, I wasn't trying to insinuate that it's only religious belief that gets used as an excuse for violent acts. I've seen the Dachau camp the Nazis used as a template for all their camps as well as the killing fields left by the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. It doesn't need to be religious belief for violence to occur (the human race can be depressingly sick at times).

All I'm saying is that religion is one of the more powerful belief systems and also the easiest to manipulate people with.

And I agree, I'm just trying to say that it's idealistic ideologies that cause this, not exclusively religion. I know we agree, I just want to dot the I's.



dsgrue3 said:
DaRev said:
dsgrue3 said:
DaRev said:

I might be mistaken, but that was a piss poor attempt at not being one-sided. So I can only conclude that you really are one-sided. In any event, let me ask you this, was your ancient gandmother an monkey and do you suppose that she had flees?

If by one-sided you mean logical, then yes it was one-sided. Otherwise, I acknowledged the validity of the claim of a supernatural being/force.

I'm not sure what you're looking for from an approach.

Nope, my grandmother is a homo sapien just as you and I are.

If that is supposed to be a slight to evolution, then you just demostrated your profound ignorance of the topic. We didn't evolve from monkeys. Modern primates (Humans, Chimps, Apes) share a common ancestor. That ancestor is an "ape-like" creature; that does not mean we came from monkeys.

If there is anything else I can educate you on, let me know since you don't seem to know much at all.

Ape-like? WTF does that mean? So you and your scientist friends don't know what the fuck people supposedly EVOLVED from, so the best you geniuses could come up with is some generic half-assed term? Listen Pal, come with cold hard facts (like you ask from religious people), a real live ape-man and proof of his cells evolving or how he turned into a human, or else get that crock of shit out of here.

So we evolved from something that wasn't a monkey, but instead was monkey-like? Well, funnily enough dude, I sort of agree with you, cause those ape-like creatures, there're called humans!

You seemed rather clueless so I used a simple term.

"The gorilla and chimpanzee diverged around the same time, about 4-6 million years ago, and either Sahelanthropus or Orrorin may be our last shared ancestor with them. The early bipedals eventually evolved into the australopithecines and later the genus Homo."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

You would probably benefit from reading the article in its entirety.

By the way, which third world country are you from that you didn't learn basic evolution theory? It's quite interesting to me that someone in the 21st century has literally no knowledge of this.

I don't know what school you when to but its obvious they feed you heaps of bullshit, and you've surrounded yourself with monkey-like friends. You come here spewing garbage like its fact because someone crammed it into you monkey-like brain. You now don't know the difference between FACT or theory, or a even straight up bullshit.

fact  

/fakt/
Noun
  1. A thing that is indisputably the case.

When you use terms such as "like" or "may be" that proves you only basing you arguments on a theory. You want to believe you that LIKELY evolved from what MIGHT have been a monkey, then you go right ahead. Just don't go around presenting it like its some FACT.

Fact, humans nor any creature on earth evolves, they reproduce. They fuck and make more, FACT. Can you prove Evolution?



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

DaRev said:
dsgrue3 said:
DaRev said:
dsgrue3 said:
DaRev said:

I might be mistaken, but that was a piss poor attempt at not being one-sided. So I can only conclude that you really are one-sided. In any event, let me ask you this, was your ancient gandmother an monkey and do you suppose that she had flees?

If by one-sided you mean logical, then yes it was one-sided. Otherwise, I acknowledged the validity of the claim of a supernatural being/force.

I'm not sure what you're looking for from an approach.

Nope, my grandmother is a homo sapien just as you and I are.

If that is supposed to be a slight to evolution, then you just demostrated your profound ignorance of the topic. We didn't evolve from monkeys. Modern primates (Humans, Chimps, Apes) share a common ancestor. That ancestor is an "ape-like" creature; that does not mean we came from monkeys.

If there is anything else I can educate you on, let me know since you don't seem to know much at all.

Ape-like? WTF does that mean? So you and your scientist friends don't know what the fuck people supposedly EVOLVED from, so the best you geniuses could come up with is some generic half-assed term? Listen Pal, come with cold hard facts (like you ask from religious people), a real live ape-man and proof of his cells evolving or how he turned into a human, or else get that crock of shit out of here.

So we evolved from something that wasn't a monkey, but instead was monkey-like? Well, funnily enough dude, I sort of agree with you, cause those ape-like creatures, there're called humans!

You seemed rather clueless so I used a simple term.

"The gorilla and chimpanzee diverged around the same time, about 4-6 million years ago, and either Sahelanthropus or Orrorin may be our last shared ancestor with them. The early bipedals eventually evolved into the australopithecines and later the genus Homo."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

You would probably benefit from reading the article in its entirety.

By the way, which third world country are you from that you didn't learn basic evolution theory? It's quite interesting to me that someone in the 21st century has literally no knowledge of this.

I don't know what school you when to but its obvious they feed you heaps of bullshit, and you've surrounded yourself with monkey-like friends. You come here spewing garbage like its fact because someone crammed it into you monkey-like brain. You now don't know the difference between FACT or theory, or a even straight up bullshit.

fact  

/fakt/
Noun
  1. A thing that is indisputably the case.

When you use terms such as "like" or "may be" that proves you only basing you arguments on a theory. You want to believe you that LIKELY evolved from what MIGHT have been a monkey, then you go right ahead. Just don't go around presenting it like its some FACT.

Fact, humans nor any creature on earth evolves, they reproduce. They fuck and make more, FACT. Can you prove Evolution?

A theory in science isn't the same as a theory in common day to day life. A theory in science has to be rigorously tested to the point of being considered fact. The only thing higher in scientific terms are laws (e.g. the laws of thermodynamics).

The bolded is simply wrong. You need to relook at your own definition of fact. Just because you put fact before a sentence doesn't make it so.

http://listverse.com/2011/11/19/8-examples-of-evolution-in-action/



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Scoobes said:
DaRev said:
dsgrue3 said:
DaRev said:
dsgrue3 said:
DaRev said:

I might be mistaken, but that was a piss poor attempt at not being one-sided. So I can only conclude that you really are one-sided. In any event, let me ask you this, was your ancient gandmother an monkey and do you suppose that she had flees?

If by one-sided you mean logical, then yes it was one-sided. Otherwise, I acknowledged the validity of the claim of a supernatural being/force.

I'm not sure what you're looking for from an approach.

Nope, my grandmother is a homo sapien just as you and I are.

If that is supposed to be a slight to evolution, then you just demostrated your profound ignorance of the topic. We didn't evolve from monkeys. Modern primates (Humans, Chimps, Apes) share a common ancestor. That ancestor is an "ape-like" creature; that does not mean we came from monkeys.

If there is anything else I can educate you on, let me know since you don't seem to know much at all.

Ape-like? WTF does that mean? So you and your scientist friends don't know what the fuck people supposedly EVOLVED from, so the best you geniuses could come up with is some generic half-assed term? Listen Pal, come with cold hard facts (like you ask from religious people), a real live ape-man and proof of his cells evolving or how he turned into a human, or else get that crock of shit out of here.

So we evolved from something that wasn't a monkey, but instead was monkey-like? Well, funnily enough dude, I sort of agree with you, cause those ape-like creatures, there're called humans!

You seemed rather clueless so I used a simple term.

"The gorilla and chimpanzee diverged around the same time, about 4-6 million years ago, and either Sahelanthropus or Orrorin may be our last shared ancestor with them. The early bipedals eventually evolved into the australopithecines and later the genus Homo."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_evolution

You would probably benefit from reading the article in its entirety.

By the way, which third world country are you from that you didn't learn basic evolution theory? It's quite interesting to me that someone in the 21st century has literally no knowledge of this.

I don't know what school you when to but its obvious they feed you heaps of bullshit, and you've surrounded yourself with monkey-like friends. You come here spewing garbage like its fact because someone crammed it into you monkey-like brain. You now don't know the difference between FACT or theory, or a even straight up bullshit.

fact  

/fakt/
Noun
  1. A thing that is indisputably the case.

When you use terms such as "like" or "may be" that proves you only basing you arguments on a theory. You want to believe you that LIKELY evolved from what MIGHT have been a monkey, then you go right ahead. Just don't go around presenting it like its some FACT.

Fact, humans nor any creature on earth evolves, they reproduce. They fuck and make more, FACT. Can you prove Evolution?

A theory in science isn't the same as a theory in common day to day life. A theory in science has to be rigorously tested to the point of being considered fact. The only thing higher in scientific terms are laws (e.g. the laws of thermodynamics).

The bolded is simply wrong. You need to relook at your own definition of fact. Just because you put fact before a sentence doesn't make it so.

http://listverse.com/2011/11/19/8-examples-of-evolution-in-action/

Boss man, a theory is only a theory because it cannot be proven, or else it would be fact. The fact that you stick the word “scientific” or any form thereof onto a theory doesn’t make it fact to anyone other than you and your monkey-like friends. FACT, evolution CANNOT be proven thus it remains just theory, whether scientific, religious, or otherwise. You then chose to accept it or not.

You people ask religious believers to produce evidence of the creator, but when we ask you to provide the same standard of proof for much less, e.g. about evolution, and you can’t. I don't give a rat's ass what you and you're scientific friends believe in anymore tthan you believe in what me and other religious people believe in. We're talking about FACT here, not what other people like you belive. The only thing you can produce is what is acceptable to other people like yourselves.

So you’re trying to tell me human reproduction (as oppose to evolution) is not a FACT?

By the way, that ‘source’ or ‘examples’ of evolution you posted is laughable. Now here is point where I usually get banned, but I will resist the urge to say what I really want to. Anyways, those example of ‘evolution’ are junk. They are nothing more than e.g. a man moving from a hot climate to a cold climate  and once getting there, almost freezing to death his first winter before slowly adapting to the climate over the years of him being in the cold. He does not evolve pal, he just adapts to his surroundings. That’s totally different thing from saying that he grew fur and is now a new species, different than scratching his butt all day and picking flees to being a scientist....wait o_ 0

In any event, the FACT remains, you CANNOT prove that humans EVOLVED from anything other than what is human. So keep sticking your ‘testers’ up the buttholes of those little frogies and butterflies, maybe, just maybe, oneday, someday, you will produce one of those monkey-like creatures. Then you can roger him till he turns to a human - good luck with that.  Until then I'll keep believeing that Humans come from Humans, Birds come from Birds, and Scientist come from monkey-like creatures.



Nintendo Network ID: DaRevren

I love My Wii U, and the potential it brings to gaming.

DaRev said:
Until then I'll keep believeing that Humans come from Humans, Birds come from Birds, and Scientist come from monkey-like creatures.

 


The idea that someone can have this much disdain for scientists and the scientific endeavor while posting from his computer on an internet forum is just mind boggling to me.  



...

DaRev said:
Scoobes said:

A theory in science isn't the same as a theory in common day to day life. A theory in science has to be rigorously tested to the point of being considered fact. The only thing higher in scientific terms are laws (e.g. the laws of thermodynamics).

The bolded is simply wrong. You need to relook at your own definition of fact. Just because you put fact before a sentence doesn't make it so.

http://listverse.com/2011/11/19/8-examples-of-evolution-in-action/

1. Boss man, a theory is only a theory because it cannot be proven, or else it would be fact. The fact that you stick the word “scientific” or any form thereof onto a theory doesn’t make it fact to anyone other than you and your monkey-like friends. FACT, evolution CANNOT be proven thus it remains just theory, whether scientific, religious, or otherwise. You then chose to accept it or not.

2. You people ask religious believers to produce evidence of the creator, but when we ask you to provide the same standard of proof for much less, e.g. about evolution, and you can’t. I don't give a rat's ass what you and you're scientific friends believe in anymore tthan you believe in what me and other religious people believe in. We're talking about FACT here, not what other people like you belive. The only thing you can produce is what is acceptable to other people like yourselves.

3. So you’re trying to tell me human reproduction (as oppose to evolution) is not a FACT?

4. By the way, that ‘source’ or ‘examples’ of evolution you posted is laughable. Now here is point where I usually get banned, but I will resist the urge to say what I really want to. Anyways, those example of ‘evolution’ are junk. They are nothing more than e.g. a man moving from a hot climate to a cold climate  and once getting there, almost freezing to death his first winter before slowly adapting to the climate over the years of him being in the cold. He does not evolve pal, he just adapts to his surroundings. That’s totally different thing from saying that he grew fur and is now a new species, different than scratching his butt all day and picking flees to being a scientist....wait o_ 0

5. In any event, the FACT remains, you CANNOT prove that humans EVOLVED from anything other than what is human. So keep sticking your ‘testers’ up the buttholes of those little frogies and butterflies, maybe, just maybe, oneday, someday, you will produce one of those monkey-like creatures. Then you can roger him till he turns to a human - good luck with that.  Until then I'll keep believeing that Humans come from Humans, Birds come from Birds, and Scientist come from monkey-like creatures.

 

1. I explained this in the last post. If you choose to ignore the information I give, that's your perogative.

2. I've stopped asking religious people for evidence because for the most part they can't. Scientists.... actually, not only scientists, general people with a greater level of knowledge and understanding of basic biology, present you with evidence, it's your choice to ignore it.

3. Did I say human reproduction is not fact? No, you're just assuming I did when I pointed out evolution was a fact and making yourself look a bit silly. In fact, the science you hold in such disdain can actually describe the process of reproduction from genetics to epigenetic effects (also a part of evolution) during embryonic development to the birth of the baby. Using these techniques we can even warn the parents if the baby has a genetic disease that they need to be aware of.

4. No, your understanding is quite limited if you think the examples given are of a single individual. Try a family of individuals moving from a hot to cold climate and surviving in extreme conditions. Over numerous generations the great-great-great-great grandchildren have paler skin as they don't need as much protection from the sun, have larger fat reserves for greater insulation etc.

Actually, even individual adaptation is a part of evolution as we can track how an individuals physical adpatation can make changes on a chemical level (to your DNA) and how these can be inherited from parent to child (epigenetics).

5. Studies of DNA sequences and genomes from a range of different species say otherwise. But if it's difficult to grasp, maybe this picture will help explain it:

Maybe look at different breeds of dogs as an example. Try breeding a Japanese Akita with a Jack Russell... might be a bit difficult. Yet they both originate from the same Wolf-based ancestor. That's arguably speciation through evolution right there (as described in the picture above).



Torillian said:
DaRev said:
Until then I'll keep believeing that Humans come from Humans, Birds come from Birds, and Scientist come from monkey-like creatures


The idea that someone can have this much disdain for scientists and the scientific endeavor while posting from his computer on an internet forum is just mind boggling to me.  

The idea that you, as a moderator, read his hate-filled nonsense, and does not ban this guy right away, is somehow mind boggling to me. I've dealt with people like him years ago, and they are incurable, hopeless cases. They lack the wiring in their brains when it comes to logic and science, no amount of explaining will ever change that.



drkohler said:
Torillian said:
DaRev said:
Until then I'll keep believeing that Humans come from Humans, Birds come from Birds, and Scientist come from monkey-like creatures


The idea that someone can have this much disdain for scientists and the scientific endeavor while posting from his computer on an internet forum is just mind boggling to me.  

The idea that you, as a moderator, read his hate-filled nonsense, and does not ban this guy right away, is somehow mind boggling to me. I've dealt with people like him years ago, and they are incurable, hopeless cases. They lack the wiring in their brains when it comes to logic and science, no amount of explaining will ever change that.

I think you're going about his post the wrong way.   He didn't actually insult anyone, at all.   If you read the earlier posts in this thread, you'd see a bunch a people downing religion, insulting it, and  I don't honestly think he thinks that all scientists are monkeys.  I'm sure this was just a injoke to all those people who follow the evolution theory excessively,  without much basis besides what was taught to them.  We all know darn well 90% of the people who support this theory don't know a fraction as much as the people who actually founded it.  

And I lol at the person here who posted the article saying "Not believing in evolution, is as bad as not believing there's a moon in the sky."  I mean, Who  the hell writes that crap.



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