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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - The Fall of Xbox - Video by Videogamedunkey

smroadkill15 on 19 September 2019

Is it a coincidence 2 new videos about 'xbox being bad' from this guy and Jim releases shortly after Gears 5 is considered a major success critically and financially? I don't think so. People have there opinions and that's fine. If they would have released their videos several years ago when the Xbox one was more down in the dumps, it would be more understanding. Considering what everything MS has accomplished in the last 2 years with nabbing up more developers, gamepass, play anywhere, PC gaming getting same day releases, BC, Xbox One X, and generally more consumer friendly practices, these sort of videos feel dated.



SammyGiireal on 19 September 2019
RJTM1991 said:

SammyGiireal said:

Dude. I am not going to go back all they way to the NES. I will start at the N64. Ocarina of Time didn't only made a perfect transition of Zelda classic action RPG gameplay into 3 Dimensions, but it created and revolutionized a few genres in the process. It was different from any other game that had ever been made. It introduced many gameplay elements that would later find their way into GTA, and other action advebture games. 

MM it's direct Sequel couldn't have been more different under the same play style. The 3 day cycle has yet to be replicated since. There was no master Sword pulling or Zelda saving in that game. Not that there is anything wrong with that.

Then came Wind Waker, a game that was panned upon reveal because it didn't live up to the realistic looking space world trailer. The game would later be extremely well recieved. Hyrule's land was replaced by a giant Sea, and while the game followed OoTs progression and control system, OoT was (and is) regarded as the greatest game of all time why would Nintendo shake up something that had been commercially and critically successful? 

Then came Twilight Princess, The Ocarina successor everyone asked for and finally got. While Zelda and Link make an appearance so does Midna, Links wolf form, Zant and the Twilight realm. Once again introducing a new twist into a proven formula. TP was still the greatest action adventure world of its time. The formula worked everyone loved it, why would it change? TP was different from WW as WW was different from MM as MM was different from OoT.

Then came Skyward Sword, my personal low point in the series thought I still think it is a 9/10 of a game. SS introduced the sky, and motion controls at its maximum expression (at least Wii wise) at the time. I wasn't a fan of it, and truly became more engrossed with Skyrim at the time. But people did complain in forums.

Finally this takes us to BotW, a game that fully dove the series in the the modern open world trend with spectacular results because Nintendo once again innovated with in a genre that was starting to fatigue people. The physics system, the elimination of themed dungeons (some people are still angry about this) replaced by a Shrine system. The ability to randomly tackle the game any way you wanted. The ability to climb, over every surface, temperature affecting character and gameplay, etc.  Every main Zelda game has always brought something new to the table. Just look at the Metacritic ratings .

I won't go into Mario because that is the one series in which Nintendo has truly experimented with each entry and to mostly spectacular results.  Nintendo has always innovated. You are complaining about Story elements. No one plays Mario for story elements. Zelda has a decent story as far as action RPGs go. 

I never asked you to, my man. I'm just stating my take here. The games share the same gameplay. There's usually Fire/Water/Desert areas. Shared items too. The story is almost identical in every entry. Shit, the characters are reincarnated in just about every game as well.

With Mario, take Sunshine as a small example, it's essentially an enhanced Mario 64 remake. With Shine Sprites replacing Stars, and paint blots replacing paintings. Only thing that separates them is FLUDD. Once again Bowser is the Big Bad, but rather than battle him on a giant Star in the sky, you battle him on a giant Shine Sprite instead.

Nintendo are innovators, can't deny that. They're the undisputed GOAT. 

I understand where you are coming from, but some of the conventions you are complaining about are what make an action RPG an Action RPG. Play the original Alundra ( the greatest 2-D action RPG ever IMO) it is a ALttP clone practically. The difference is Nintendo always brings a new twist into the fray. Story wise it is what it is, Zelda and Link reincarnate over and over along with Ganondorf. It is what drives the series forward people will either like it or they won't . 

Platformers for the most part have always been collect a tons since Mario 64. I disagree on Sunshine, to me it was inferior to 64, but even then rellied on the water pack and challenges tailored around that. What makes Mario different from others is the diversity of challenges one has to accomplish in order to earn the Star, sunshine, power moon, etc.

Should I complain that in every Halo I have to shoot my way through the main story? Or that I have to cover and shoot my way through every Gears entry? Because those are general gameplay mainstays in their respective genres.

Last edited by SammyGiireal - on 19 September 2019

COKTOE on 19 September 2019
smroadkill15 said:
Is it a coincidence 2 new videos about 'xbox being bad' from this guy and Jim releases shortly after Gears 5 is considered a major success critically and financially? I don't think so. People have there opinions and that's fine. If they would have released their videos several years ago when the Xbox one was more down in the dumps, it would be more understanding. Considering what everything MS has accomplished in the last 2 years with nabbing up more developers, gamepass, play anywhere, PC gaming getting same day releases, BC, Xbox One X, and generally more consumer friendly practices, these sort of videos feel dated.

The Sterling video criticizing Xbox for it's use of MT's and loots boxes isn't dated at all. It's as relevant a topic now as it has been this entire gen. In fact, doing this  vid after yet another Xbox first party game launches with ludicrous prices for cosmetic purchases, as well as selling microtransaction XP boosts, makes it quite topical. Good timing if anything. And yes, these two vids being made around the Gears 5 release is a coincidence. Sterling had been talking about making this particular video since before Gears 5 launched.



- "If you have the heart of a true winner, you can always get more pissed off than some other asshole."

pikashoe on 19 September 2019
RJTM1991 said:
pikashoe said:

The Zelda and Mario series are known for drastically changing things up with almost every entry. Go from oot to MM to WW, to TP to BOTW. Mario went from 64 to sunshine to galaxy 1/2 to 3d world/land to odyssey. These series have never done the same thing for more than two games in a row. Your right about Pokemon

Drastically changing? I wouldn't say that. OOT, MM, WW, TP, SS, and the handheld games all build on each other, similar to Gears and Halo. They changed certain things but kept the core gameplay, setting, story and so on. I remember some in the Zelda community complaining about how stale and repetitive the Zelda series had become when Skyward Sword released as well.

There's nothing wrong with sticking to what works, I'm just surprised that one company can spend decades re-doing the same thing over and over again, but get a pass while others get buried.

The only thing particularly similar in Zelda is structure and progression. But tone, artsyle, control, music, setting etc changes dramatically from game to game. It's one of the few franchises that tends to scrap everything and start from scratch with new releases.  Most Zelda games have a new engine and radically different  control schemes, physics, etc. 

Mario has so little focus on story so that's a non point. In terms of gameplay it's very hard to say that galaxy and 64 have much in common. Mario 64 has open sandbox levels while galaxy is more linear and course based.

The main issue with gears is that the gameplay changes are much more slight than Mario or Zelda along with the gears series getting many more releases in a short period of time. We have 7 3d Mario games since 96 and 6 gears of war games since 06. The main issue with halo is that bungle left,



SammyGiireal on 19 September 2019
pikashoe said:
RJTM1991 said:

Drastically changing? I wouldn't say that. OOT, MM, WW, TP, SS, and the handheld games all build on each other, similar to Gears and Halo. They changed certain things but kept the core gameplay, setting, story and so on. I remember some in the Zelda community complaining about how stale and repetitive the Zelda series had become when Skyward Sword released as well.

There's nothing wrong with sticking to what works, I'm just surprised that one company can spend decades re-doing the same thing over and over again, but get a pass while others get buried.

The only thing particularly similar in Zelda is structure and progression. But tone, artsyle, control, music, setting etc changes dramatically from game to game. It's one of the few franchises that tends to scrap everything and start from scratch with new releases.  Most Zelda games have a new engine and radically different  control schemes, physics, etc. 

Mario has so little focus on story so that's a non point. In terms of gameplay it's very hard to say that galaxy and 64 have much in common. Mario 64 has open sandbox levels while galaxy is more linear and course based.

The main issue with gears is that the gameplay changes are much more slight than Mario or Zelda along with the gears series getting many more releases in a short period of time. We have 7 3d Mario games since 96 and 6 gears of war games since 06. The main issue with halo is that bungle left,

Yeah Reach was the last great Halo. 343 has done a stellar job in Multiplayer, but the series hasn't reached the heights it previously did campaign wise.



thismeintiel on 19 September 2019
Ganoncrotch said:
thismeintiel said:

I think a lot of Xbox guys have jumped ship or are jumping ship. One channel I watch is MBG. Not a big channel, but he has about 33K subs. I came across him this year. I decided to look at his old videos, and it surprised me because they were all positive Xbox vids. Apparently, he jumped ship earlier this year. I think a lot are following.

And there's a reason their PR for Gears 5 rings hollow. They gave the game away for a month for $1. Of course, people are going to jump at that. I'm surprised it wasn't more than 3M honestly, as it's on PC, too. I mean GOW and Spider-Man sold over 3M in it first days at $60 a pop. That's $180M+ in revenue compared to probably just $17M from retail/digital* and the rest from Game Pass promotions. It's obvious that MS is taking a hit on this game in order to push Game Pass. I just don't think it's going to work when the promotion is up and their aren't more huge titles on there.

* Gears 3 sold 3M in its first week. In the UK, it did 20x the amount Gears 5 sold. If we say that averages out to 15x, with other regions probably doing better, that's just 200K units sold. If we are being generous and make the digital ratio a high 42%, that makes 284K units sold, $17M in revenue at full price.

It's not even about game news and info from Dunkey that I love, it's the comedy as a personality I find him hilarious, I think a lot of people look at what he does in terms of "that's not a good argument" and miss the fact that the majority of his viewers watch Dunkeys content because of his messed up sense of humour, it's the same as Red Letter Media for me, "are they the best movie critics in the world?" no absolutely not, "are they funny as all hell and a joy to watch regardless of what they're talking about" absolutely.

Personality = popularity on youtube, not those videos where they do the nitty gritty to make sure everything is 100% fact checked, most people just want to watch someone with a good sense of humour or a sense of humour that is as messed up as their own, for me that's all sorts of jokes that would get me banned from here after a single posting of one... possibly permanently

Oh, I definitely agree. Even though I like Knack, I can't help but laugh my ass off at "Knack, baby!"

RLM is equally as great. Science Man for MVP.

gergroy said:
Video was just a list wars of a brief snapshot in time. Xbox has fallen from their peak, but every console maker has gone through dark periods of time. Sony and Nintendo have both experienced prolonged periods of time with they faltered as well. This has been a terrible generation for Xbox, that is definitely true, but I wouldn’t throw the towel in on them yet. They appear to building towards something great. They seem poised to come out swinging next gen and are probably the best positioned console maker to capitalize on the inevitable digital future in games.

The big difference is that Nintendo still had the very popular DS and 3DS going for them while the Wii U was flopping, and still tried to provide the Wii U with quality SW. Sony worked it's ass off to gain gamers back throughout last gen with a steady flow of quality exclusives.

MS, on the other hand, has lowered its output of exclusives to a trickle and many of them have been mediocre. Without really giving a reason to stay with them, they're still telling Xbox gamers to please be excited for next gen. Sure they bought some good studios, but many are developing multiplats, so who knows how long till we see MS exclusives from them. Or if they will be of high quality.



 

Tulipanzo on 19 September 2019

It's unsurprising that this is such a popular sentiment, which is really what this is about.
You can try and deflect by talking about how Dunkey isn't good or serious, but the main point is that most people looked at a video trashing Xbox's past gen and a half and went "yeah, checks out".
If I had to hazard as to the reason why, it's because, unlike Sony and Nintendo, they've never tried to expand their audience to people who don't already like XBox.


I ran a thought experiment: what would happen if, for whatever reason, I didn't like the three core franchises of each publisher?
That is, what if I didn't like Nintendo (Mario, Zelda, Smash), Sony (Uncharted, GOW, Gran Turismo) or Microsoft's (Halo, Gears, Forza) principal output?
With Nintendo, I'd still have Fire Emblem, Kirby, Metroid, Astral Chain and a myriad other.
With Sony I'd have Bloodborne, Until Dawn, Horizon: Zero Dawn, the Yakuza series, Ratchet and Clank and more.
However with MS? Well, if you don't care for their big three franchises you're mostly sol




estebxx on 19 September 2019
thismeintiel said:
Ganoncrotch said:
Dunkey is a God, video is pretty much nail on the head, I was expecting more a comedy video from him but nope, does it direct and fairly cutting breakdown of why the system and their whole division is pointless right now.

Also

#11 ON TRENDING FOR GAMING
The Fall of Xbox

I love Dunkey but didn't know he was that huge, some of his Mario Maker videos are gold btw if you guys haven't seen them, he's really good at games as well as being a funny youtuber.

I think a lot of Xbox guys have jumped ship or are jumping ship. One channel I watch is MBG. Not a big channel, but he has about 33K subs. I came across him this year. I decided to look at his old videos, and it surprised me because they were all positive Xbox vids. Apparently, he jumped ship earlier this year. I think a lot are following.

And there's a reason their PR for Gears 5 rings hollow. They gave the game away for a month for $1. Of course, people are going to jump at that. I'm surprised it wasn't more than 3M honestly, as it's on PC, too. I mean GOW and Spider-Man sold over 3M in it first days at $60 a pop. That's $180M+ in revenue compared to probably just $17M from retail/digital* and the rest from Game Pass promotions. It's obvious that MS is taking a hit on this game in order to push Game Pass. I just don't think it's going to work when the promotion is up and their aren't more huge titles on there.

* Gears 3 sold 3M in its first week. In the UK, it did 20x the amount Gears 5 sold. If we say that averages out to 15x, with other regions probably doing better, that's just 200K units sold. If we are being generous and make the digital ratio a high 42%, that makes 284K units sold, $17M in revenue at full price.

I started watching him right before he switched from being an Xbox centric channel to a Playstation one, it was due to him playing GOW and then TLOU and realizing that those games were (in his own words) "on another level", after that ive been enjoying watching him play through all the PS exclusives he had missed this gen and doing reviews for each one of them.



thismeintiel on 19 September 2019
smroadkill15 said:
Is it a coincidence 2 new videos about 'xbox being bad' from this guy and Jim releases shortly after Gears 5 is considered a major success critically and financially? I don't think so. People have there opinions and that's fine. If they would have released their videos several years ago when the Xbox one was more down in the dumps, it would be more understanding. Considering what everything MS has accomplished in the last 2 years with nabbing up more developers, gamepass, play anywhere, PC gaming getting same day releases, BC, Xbox One X, and generally more consumer friendly practices, these sort of videos feel dated.

You're going to have to post a source on Gears 5 being a success financially. Signs we have so far seem to point to MS taking a hit on it to push Game Pass.



 

Azzanation on 19 September 2019
SammyGiireal said:

I disagree about the implosion.  Both the PS3 and the 360 were successful in their gen with Sony winning by a small margin but building enough mid to late gen exclusives in order to carry over into this current gen. The Wiis success with the casual market is the only strange occurrence in the past two gens, and Nintendo paid for it (conquering the casual non habitual gamers while losing the hardcore gamers to Sony and Microsoft) with the Wii U.  There was no implosion from a front runner, both MS and Sony were in a good standing prior to Don Mattricks folly. If anything the PS3 closed out the strongest last gen.

Sorry Sammy, the PS3 lost more money last gen than any other console maker and at a time when Sony as a brand was falling, the PS3 almost added the nail in the coffin. 

As a major business standpoint the PS3 was a flop. The 360 would be too however there income and revenue gain from Live members would have eaten up a lot of the costs of the 360 and Red Ring of Death issues and actually probably made the 360 profitable (However MS doesn't show Membership profits in there end of year results). Hence why Sony followed suit this gen with the PS4.

The XB1 might have also come out the gate similar to the PS3, but the XB1 isn't a flop interms of a business profiting stand point, its just the PS4 is making a lot more money this time around. I don't believe the XB1 has lost MS billions like the PS3 or 360 has in the past. Its why MS are still making consoles next gen, its not about the sales numbers eclipsing the other sales numbers, its all about the profits and Xbox consoles profit the most through memberships.

https://www.vg247.com/2013/01/07/xbox-360-and-ps3-losses-total-8-billion-ex-sony-employee-paints-grim-future/

360 sold 85m Lost $3b 

PS3 sold 87m Lost $5b

A 2m sales difference in platform sales and yet a $2b more lost overall, I would say you would much rather the lower sale platform than the extra billions lost. Also add the fact last gen Xbox 360 also sold more software overall and had income from millions of live members makes this a no brainer in which console is more successful than the other.

Last edited by Azzanation - on 19 September 2019