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Forums - Politics Discussion - Trump's Personal Lawyer And Campaign Manager Both Going To Prison

EricHiggin said:
Final-Fan said:

In other words, it's exactly as I said before.  My earlier edit was based on what you just quoted. 

Are you now agreeing with me that your assumption that Mueller only kicked him off the team due to the bad behavior being leaked was a bad assumption, and that we have no reason to believe it is true? 

My recollection wasn't exactly as I had thought it played out, or at least it seems based on what I can find and what evidence I can offer. How about your point on there being no leaks other than the official public submission from the DOJ to try and get ahead of the situation, even though the leaks were already out there? Are you agreeing it seems to be that there were leaks after Strzok and Page were no longer part of the investigation, and that neither should have been on a team like that or in positions of such power and influence?

I presume that by implication you do agree that "we have no reason to believe it is true" (now that your bad recollection has been corrected). 

If by "out there" you mean it had been leaked to certain individuals who had not yet spread the information further, then I agree that to the best of my limited knowledge that seems to have been the case. 

As for "neither Strzok nor Page should have been in their positions of power in the first place", I can hardly deny that occasionally people rise to positions they should not occupy, throughout history and throughout society, apparently including these two.  All we can do is try to remind everyone to act in a manner worthy of their position; try to limit the damage people can do when they fail or defy this request; try to find those who have done so; and root them out where we have found them, putting them in a position less incompatible or less damaging.  As far as I can tell, Mueller's team did all four of these things.

[edit:  I said "all", but clearly there's also prevention to consider; however, prevention will never have a 100% success rate and I have no reason to think that the FBI in general and Mueller in particular was negligent on that end in this case.  There are other situations where I do think there was negligence where that sort of thing is concerned, but not here.] 

Last edited by Final-Fan - on 23 September 2018

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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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Final-Fan said:
EricHiggin said:

My recollection wasn't exactly as I had thought it played out, or at least it seems based on what I can find and what evidence I can offer. How about your point on there being no leaks other than the official public submission from the DOJ to try and get ahead of the situation, even though the leaks were already out there? Are you agreeing it seems to be that there were leaks after Strzok and Page were no longer part of the investigation, and that neither should have been on a team like that or in positions of such power and influence?

I presume that by implication you do agree that "we have no reason to believe it is true" (now that your bad recollection has been corrected). 

If by "out there" you mean it had been leaked to certain individuals who had not yet spread the information further, then I agree that to the best of my limited knowledge that seems to have been the case. 

As for "neither Strzok nor Page should have been in their positions of power in the first place", I can hardly deny that occasionally people rise to positions they should not occupy, throughout history and throughout society, apparently including these two.  All we can do is try to remind everyone to act in a manner worthy of their position; try to limit the damage people can do when they fail or defy this request; try to find those who have done so; and root them out where we have found them, putting them in a position less incompatible or less damaging.  As far as I can tell, Mueller's team did all four of these things.

[edit:  I said "all", but clearly there's also prevention to consider; however, prevention will never have a 100% success rate and I have no reason to think that the FBI in general and Mueller in particular was negligent on that end in this case.  There are other situations where I do think there was negligence where that sort of thing is concerned, but not here.] 

I mean I haven't been able to find convincing evidence that it was, yet that's not how I remember it exactly, and considering my memory is pretty good for the most part, to say it definitely didn't happen that way is pretty tough. Considering it may have come after the fact, and in a somewhat similar time frame, based on the evidence I've found, it seems that's the more likely scenario as to how it played out. At this point in time it looks as if the leaks were afterwards, and it's unlikely I find something that disproves that.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/justice-dept-releases-text-messages-anti-trump-fbi-agent-lawyer-n829061

This talks about how the DOJ released the texts on either Dec 5th or Dec 12th, a Tuesday, based on the fact the article is dated Dec 12th-13th, a Tuesday, and there were no prior Tuesday's in December which is the month in which the DOJ released them.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/two-senior-fbi-officials-on-clinton-trump-probes-exchanged-politically-charged-texts-disparaging-trump/2017/12/02/9846421c-d707-11e7-a986-d0a9770d9a3e_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.52b2752e9f8b

This article dated Dec 2nd, talks about the Strzok-Page relationship and their ties to Muellers team and how it's feared the texts would be used by Trump and the GOP to smear Muellers team and the Russia probe. I can't find anything earlier at the moment, but the situation had leaked before hand, and it was known the texts existed, but it looks as if the contents of those texts hadn't been leaked.



EricHiggin said:
Final-Fan said:

In other words, it's exactly as I said before.  My earlier edit was based on what you just quoted. 

Are you now agreeing with me that your assumption that Mueller only kicked him off the team due to the bad behavior being leaked was a bad assumption, and that we have no reason to believe it is true? 

My recollection wasn't exactly as I had thought it played out, or at least it seems based on what I can find and what evidence I can offer. How about your point on there being no leaks other than the official public submission from the DOJ to try and get ahead of the situation, even though the leaks were already out there? Are you agreeing it seems to be that there were leaks after Strzok and Page were no longer part of the investigation, and that neither should have been on a team like that or in positions of such power and influence?

I had made an assumption before that I would like to double check:  when you say "it seems to be that there were leaks after Strzok and page were no longer part of the investigation", you do still mean leaks of the Strzok-Page texts, correct?  Leaks which, IMO, are unlikely to have come from the Mueller team instead of DOJ, Congress, etc. 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Final-Fan said:
EricHiggin said:

My recollection wasn't exactly as I had thought it played out, or at least it seems based on what I can find and what evidence I can offer. How about your point on there being no leaks other than the official public submission from the DOJ to try and get ahead of the situation, even though the leaks were already out there? Are you agreeing it seems to be that there were leaks after Strzok and Page were no longer part of the investigation, and that neither should have been on a team like that or in positions of such power and influence?

I had made an assumption before that I would like to double check:  when you say "it seems to be that there were leaks after Strzok and page were no longer part of the investigation", you do still mean leaks of the Strzok-Page texts, correct?  Leaks which, IMO, are unlikely to have come from the Mueller team instead of DOJ, Congress, etc. 

I realize you did. I was just making it clear with the links. My point was never about Muellers team leaking the texts, whether they did or didn't. The point was about the individuals he had chosen for his team, and what that could mean about his team. It could just be two bad apples, and it could be much worse. Even if Mueller knows there are others with dirt that could stain his investigations integrity, as long as it doesn't directly effect the task at hand, he wouldn't want to drop too many if he didn't have to. Just imagine what it would look like if over the course of the first year, if he fires half of his team? It wouldn't just be his investigation that would come into question, it would become Mueller himself. Again, that's not to say he and his team are a bunch of no good crooks, everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but there are signs here and there that point to possible issues, so I like to keep my mind open.



EricHiggin said:
Final-Fan said:

I had made an assumption before that I would like to double check:  when you say "it seems to be that there were leaks after Strzok and page were no longer part of the investigation", you do still mean leaks of the Strzok-Page texts, correct?  Leaks which, IMO, are unlikely to have come from the Mueller team instead of DOJ, Congress, etc. 

1.  I realize you did. I was just making it clear with the links. My point was never about Muellers team leaking the texts, whether they did or didn't. The point was about the individuals he had chosen for his team, and what that could mean about his team. It could just be two bad apples, and it could be much worse. Even if Mueller knows there are others with dirt that could stain his investigations integrity, as long as it doesn't directly effect the task at hand, he wouldn't want to drop too many if he didn't have to. 2.  Just imagine what it would look like if over the course of the first year, if he fires half of his team? It wouldn't just be his investigation that would come into question, it would become Mueller himself. Again, that's not to say he and his team are a bunch of no good crooks, everyone is innocent until proven guilty, but 3.  there are signs here and there that point to possible issues, so I like to keep my mind open.

1.  You didn't contradict the yes/no question, so I guess the assumption was not wrong. 
2.  Insert joke about the Trump adminstration here. 
3.  Such as? 



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

I wonder how getting laughed at the UN Security consul will affect Trump ego. Nothing like trying to tell the rest of the world how great you are and getting laughed at, I guess he forgot he wasn't speaking to his base.



SpokenTruth said:
Machiavellian said:
I wonder how getting laughed at the UN Security consul will affect Trump ego. Nothing like trying to tell the rest of the world how great you are and getting laughed at, I guess he forgot he wasn't speaking to his base.

Trump gets laughed at.  Immediately says, "Didn't expect that reaction, but that's okay."

Today when asked about the laughter he said, "“Oh it was great. Well that was meant to get some laughter, but it was great.”

Also this:

@RealDonaldTrump

We need a President who isn't a laughing stock to the entire World. We need a truly great leader, a genius at strategy and winning. Respect!

"America's so true". That could be taken many ways, and laughter would be an acceptable response, whether you think it's her leaders or media that's full of it.

I like how afterwards when Trump made it clear that America isn't going to bow down to globalism and is going to make sure it's taking care of itself before going out of it's way to make deals that hurt the Country and it's people, and how they won't be going out of their way to push other nations around as long as their following the rules they all agree to, yet won't hesitate to punish those who do, etc, etc.

Nobody was laughing anymore after hearing that.



EricHiggin said:
SpokenTruth said:

Trump gets laughed at.  Immediately says, "Didn't expect that reaction, but that's okay."

Today when asked about the laughter he said, "“Oh it was great. Well that was meant to get some laughter, but it was great.”

Also this:

@RealDonaldTrump

We need a President who isn't a laughing stock to the entire World. We need a truly great leader, a genius at strategy and winning. Respect!

"America's so true". That could be taken many ways, and laughter would be an acceptable response, whether you think it's her leaders or media that's full of it.

I like how afterwards when Trump made it clear that America isn't going to bow down to globalism and is going to make sure it's taking care of itself before going out of it's way to make deals that hurt the Country and it's people, and how they won't be going out of their way to push other nations around as long as their following the rules they all agree to, yet won't hesitate to punish those who do, etc, etc.

Nobody was laughing anymore after hearing that.

Spin Control.  For someone who says he is not a Trump supporter, you sure do a good job imitating one.  You might want to believe that the rest of the world doesn't look at Trump as an idiot but lets bring a few situations back into light.

First you have NAFTA.  Nothing is more embarrassing then when someone goes into negotiation meetings to work on a new deal and they show how totally ignorant they are when Trump had to be told multiple times that the US has a Trade surplus against Canada.  For the man who says he is great on trade, to come into those talks totally ignorant make the man look like an idiot.  

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/trump-garbles-canadian-trade-stats/

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-gets-it-backwards-when-he-says-the-us-is-a-piggy-bank-that-everybodys-robbing-2018-06-12

The big problem with Trump comes back to the trust issue.  When you have someone who loves to tell lies, garble facts and leave out important data to support their position, it would be hard for anyone to ever trust a word that ever comes out of their mouth.  

Next we have that meeting between Trump and Merkel of Germany where she had to explain to him 11 times that Germany could not do a bilateral trade deal.  

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-white-house-called-this-trump-angela-merkel-exchange-humiliating-2017-12

Again we see Trump ignorance.  The main issue though is that he had to be told 11 times.  Just think how a person would think of the other if they had to explain 11 times to someone on something they should already know.

Hold up, we are not done.  If you really want to understand how the world thinks of Trump, this little story tells it all.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-tariffs-eu-colorful-cards-2018-7

When world leaders believe they have to dumb things down for someone, thats when you know the world stage has come to an conclusion that the US president is an idiot.

Lets not just stop there, lets go to a nice totally wrong ignorant tweet from Trump to show how proud he is to show the world just how uneducated he is on Tarriffs 

Big dollars are flowing into our Treasury. Other countries use Tariffs against, but when we use them, foolish people scream! Tariffs will make our country much richer than it is today. Only fools would disagree. We are using them to negotiate fair trade deals and, if countries are still unwilling to negotiate, they will pay us vast sums of money in the form of Tariffs. We win either way. China, which is for the first time doing poorly against us, is spending a fortune on ads and P.R. trying to convince and scare our politicians to fight me on Tariffs- because they are really hurting their economy. Likewise other countries. We are Winning, but must be strong!

Nothing says, I have no clue what I am doing then this tweet.  Let not stop there, the accounting of Trump and how people view him in the White house is another example that just supports what we have already seen.  The excerpts from Bob Woodward book doesn't paint anything new, it just more evidence of what people who support Trump refuse to believe, The man is an idiot.

https://www.salon.com/2018/09/04/bob-woodwards-explosive-new-book-to-reveal-trumps-white-house-in-chaos/

I like the part where Mathis is trying to explain why we have Troops in the Korean Peninsula. I know you probably would dismiss this account but things were being said way before this book came out and it only collaborate the story of the complete ignorance and willful ignorance.

So in conclusion, you can definitely believe they were laughing at Trump.



SpokenTruth said:

You can't spin this one.  He was being laughed at.

And they didn't laugh at that last part you wrote because that's pretty damn common sense and something all UN countries do anyway.  With few exceptions, they all look out for themselves first, don't push others around and push those that do.  Not really sure where how expect any laughter from would come about.  But that's a nice attempt at a deflection from the fact Trump was being laughed at.

Machiavellian said:

Spin Control.  For someone who says he is not a Trump supporter, you sure do a good job imitating one.  You might want to believe that the rest of the world doesn't look at Trump as an idiot but lets bring a few situations back into light.

First you have NAFTA.  Nothing is more embarrassing then when someone goes into negotiation meetings to work on a new deal and they show how totally ignorant they are when Trump had to be told multiple times that the US has a Trade surplus against Canada.  For the man who says he is great on trade, to come into those talks totally ignorant make the man look like an idiot.  

https://www.factcheck.org/2018/06/trump-garbles-canadian-trade-stats/

https://www.marketwatch.com/story/trump-gets-it-backwards-when-he-says-the-us-is-a-piggy-bank-that-everybodys-robbing-2018-06-12

The big problem with Trump comes back to the trust issue.  When you have someone who loves to tell lies, garble facts and leave out important data to support their position, it would be hard for anyone to ever trust a word that ever comes out of their mouth.  

Next we have that meeting between Trump and Merkel of Germany where she had to explain to him 11 times that Germany could not do a bilateral trade deal.  

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-white-house-called-this-trump-angela-merkel-exchange-humiliating-2017-12

Again we see Trump ignorance.  The main issue though is that he had to be told 11 times.  Just think how a person would think of the other if they had to explain 11 times to someone on something they should already know.

Hold up, we are not done.  If you really want to understand how the world thinks of Trump, this little story tells it all.

https://www.businessinsider.com/trump-trade-tariffs-eu-colorful-cards-2018-7

When world leaders believe they have to dumb things down for someone, thats when you know the world stage has come to an conclusion that the US president is an idiot.

Lets not just stop there, lets go to a nice totally wrong ignorant tweet from Trump to show how proud he is to show the world just how uneducated he is on Tarriffs 

Big dollars are flowing into our Treasury. Other countries use Tariffs against, but when we use them, foolish people scream! Tariffs will make our country much richer than it is today. Only fools would disagree. We are using them to negotiate fair trade deals and, if countries are still unwilling to negotiate, they will pay us vast sums of money in the form of Tariffs. We win either way. China, which is for the first time doing poorly against us, is spending a fortune on ads and P.R. trying to convince and scare our politicians to fight me on Tariffs- because they are really hurting their economy. Likewise other countries. We are Winning, but must be strong!

Nothing says, I have no clue what I am doing then this tweet.  Let not stop there, the accounting of Trump and how people view him in the White house is another example that just supports what we have already seen.  The excerpts from Bob Woodward book doesn't paint anything new, it just more evidence of what people who support Trump refuse to believe, The man is an idiot.

https://www.salon.com/2018/09/04/bob-woodwards-explosive-new-book-to-reveal-trumps-white-house-in-chaos/

I like the part where Mathis is trying to explain why we have Troops in the Korean Peninsula. I know you probably would dismiss this account but things were being said way before this book came out and it only collaborate the story of the complete ignorance and willful ignorance.

So in conclusion, you can definitely believe they were laughing at Trump.

Unless I missed something, the whole "one diplomat" here and another "diplomat" there comments, mean nothing, because they didn't state they were actually there. They could have spoken to any diplomat and got their opinion. Even if these people were there, and they were laughing at him, one or two does not count for squat out of everyone who was present. It's not like there were only 10 people in the room.

The guy who's always pointing out 'fake news' makes a comment about how 'true' America is, in a somewhat sarcastic tone, pausing between America's and so true, and the only possible conclusion is they must be laughing at Trump? Considering he had the last laugh and bushed it off, seems just as likely it wasn't about him, knowing how he typically reacts.



I don't understand what paying a hooker has to do with the Mueller investigation, whose the sole purpose of existing is to seek evidence of Russian collusion.