By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Nintendo Discussion - Bitterness in the Wii fandom?

Lurker said:
Innervate said:
Carl2291 said:
Innervate said:
Carl2291 said:
guiduc said:
BladeOfGod said:
they are just jealous cuz they're not getting Batman AA, RE5, DMC4, Bioshock, MW2 ( maybe in 2014 ), AC 2, Bayonetta and lots of other awesome 3rd party games

Could you stop trolling here?

If you were in that situation, maybe you too you would be angry. We just don't get the games we deserve. We can only count on Nintendo, unfortunately.

That's the thing though. Why do you automatically "deserve" those games? Because of the Wii sales?

The bigger install base having the best 3rd party support has always been the case, why is it suddenly a problem now that Nintendo is back on top? It's a little thing called 'common sense'; a bigger install base means more potential sales.

The bigger install base isn't seen as the Wii, it is seen as the (as the industry puts it)... "HD Twins". Which have a greater market share than Wii, and also share a whole bunch of the same "core" fanbase.

You're making the mistake in not taking into account multiple console ownership. Even ignoring that, like others have stated the Wii could have the same market share as the PS2 and would still have the same support. We have already pointed out the many flaws in your argument, so if you do not wish to revise it I don't see a point in continuing this argument.

The Wii will never have that PS2 level of marketshare because that extra 20% or more is spread around to the HD. When PS2 was on top it had everyone on there. Casual, hardcore and whatever else. Third parties had no problem with that. The kind of games they like making sell more on HD.

Says who? What game on HD consoles wouldn't have sold comparable on Wii? The only game that comes to mind to prove the opposite is MH3. A game that was originally slated for PS3 being moved to Wii (due to installed base and dev costs) and topping a Million.



Bet between Slimbeast and Arius Dion about Wii sales 2009:


If the Wii sells less than 20 million in 2009 (as defined by VGC sales between week ending 3d Jan 2009 to week ending 4th Jan 2010) Slimebeast wins and get to control Arius Dion's sig for 1 month.

If the Wii sells more than 20 million in 2009 (as defined above) Arius Dion wins and gets to control Slimebeast's sig for 1 month.

Around the Network
Demotruk said:
Carl2291 said:

The bigger install base isn't seen as the Wii, it is seen as the (as the industry puts it)... "HD Twins". Which have a greater market share than Wii, and also share a whole bunch of the same "core" fanbase.

Actually that phrase is mostly used on vgchartz. Google it, vgchartz is the first result. Malstrom is the originator of the phrase, and his posts are commonly discussed here.

Even then, that's still how the developers see it.



                            

Carl2291 said:

You do realise that those FIVE games you just gave me ammount to total sales of just over SIX Million?

They also amount to two two-year-late ports, two unarcadey rail shooters and a title that's released only in Japan and has outsold every HD game bar one.



A game I'm developing with some friends:

www.xnagg.com/zombieasteroids/publish.htm

It is largely a technical exercise but feedback is appreciated.

theprof00 said:

famousringo said:
Let me tell youa story of two delis, located across the street from each other. The Wii Deli specializes in club sandwiches, and the HD Deli makes great big deluxe submarine sandwiches.

Threepee, a sandwich maker working at HD Deli, is having a hard time making ends meet. He makes a mean submarine sandwich, but there just aren't always enough people hungry for a submarine sandwich to pay the bills.

Threepee looks across the street, and sees people lined up to get into Wii Deli. Seeing dollar signs, Threepee walks across the street and asks the proprietor if he could use another sandwich maker. The propietor agrees, noting that he's having trouble meeting demand and customers like variety.

So Threepee starts selling sandwiches, only he can't afford to buy all the ingredients that he puts into his submarine sandwiches. That should be okay, because if these people wanted a submarine sandwich, they'd be across the street anyway. He doesn't want to compete with the propietor's club sandwiches, because he thinks people will just turn up their nose and buy from him. So Threepee makes cheese sandwiches: Just a couple pieces of Wonderbread with a slice of processed cheese in the middle.

At first, things go well. Customers are tired of waiting in line for club sandwiches, so they try a cheese sandwich for a little variety. Threepee thinks this is great, and starts making more and more cheese sandwiches.

But the customers aren't enthused. Where's the tomato? The turkey? It's a little unsatisfying. So they go back to waiting in line for club sandwiches.

Threepee's response to this development is anger. He's spent a lot of money on Wonderbread and processed cheese. Rather than trying to make club sandwiches, or coming up with a sandwich that's different, but just as satisfying, Threepee angrily blames the customers of the Wii Deli for not buying his sandwiches. He tells them that he thinks they're ignorant people who don't even like sandwiches and storms out of the deli.

Now tell me, do the customers of the Wii Deli have any reason to find Threepee annoying?

 

 

Except that grilled cheese is delicious, and when he throws in some chicken or tuna or tomato, people say "whatever, it's not a wiideli club sandwich". So, he tries making some wiideli sandwiches after thorough testing to suit the townspeople's tastes. So, he makes 3 new sandiwches and a lot of people buy them. He tries making some more new ones and people like them, but he only makes a few cents on every sandwich. But that's ok, he has established a brand and still has his 3 sandwiches. The next month, wiideli starts a new promotion: "Re-introducing the original sandwich". Threepee's sales drop into the toilet. Threepee looks at the situation and says "fine, I'll just sell exactly what they were just selling a month ago". Except nobody buys them.

Frustrated, he starts looking at his options. He then realizes that they live on an island in the pacific, and there are only 10 possible ingredients located there. He remembers that he already tried all the other combinations and summizes that he should try just putting more of each ingredient in each sandwich. So, he goes to his distributor and they tell him, "sorry, nobody is allowed to exceed the allowed amount. Sandwiches cannot exceed a certain weight, and you are already pushing the limits". So, threepee decides to move to the mainland. Even on the boat, the club sandwiches are three times bigger and are made from a selection of 50 ingredients. Completely exhausted, he wonders why he moved to the island in the first place.

Threepee moves back to the mainland and works for the big submarine sandwich empire, takes out a loan to buy 100 new ingredients and introduces his biggest sandwich yet, with many Lairs and Lairs of meats and cheeses, and even adds some expensive rare giant enemy crabmeat.  When he releases his new sandwich, he invites all the food critics to come try it out, and lets them now that there's a stupid island out there full of morons who wouldn't know good sandwiches if they crawled up their ass, died, and blamed Wii Fit.

Threepee's sandwich tastes like shit, costs too much, and makes one of the food critics vomit.  Another critic says "Hey aren't you that cheese sandwich moron who said we don't know what good sandwiches are?"  Sandwich-goers of all creeds abandon him.  Threepee is now homeless.  And as he wanders the street looking for crumbs, he can look off into the Pacific, and see a great island building a glorious tower into the heavens, with new kinds of sandwiches that don't even need bread!  Some are open-faced, and some use lettuce on the outside, a crazy insult to the sandwiches of the oldschool!  But since everybody is so fat from all those giant submarine sandwiches, the Island introduces the Atkins Diet, and lettuce sandwiches take over the world.



Carl2291 said:
Innervate said:
Carl2291 said:
Innervate said:
Carl2291 said:
guiduc said:
BladeOfGod said:
they are just jealous cuz they're not getting Batman AA, RE5, DMC4, Bioshock, MW2 ( maybe in 2014 ), AC 2, Bayonetta and lots of other awesome 3rd party games

Could you stop trolling here?

If you were in that situation, maybe you too you would be angry. We just don't get the games we deserve. We can only count on Nintendo, unfortunately.

That's the thing though. Why do you automatically "deserve" those games? Because of the Wii sales?

The bigger install base having the best 3rd party support has always been the case, why is it suddenly a problem now that Nintendo is back on top? It's a little thing called 'common sense'; a bigger install base means more potential sales.

The bigger install base isn't seen as the Wii, it is seen as the (as the industry puts it)... "HD Twins". Which have a greater market share than Wii, and also share a whole bunch of the same "core" fanbase.

You're making the mistake in not taking into account multiple console ownership. Even ignoring that, like others have stated the Wii could have the same market share as the PS2 and would still have the same support. We have already pointed out the many flaws in your argument, so if you do not wish to revise it I don't see a point in continuing this argument.

Why should i take into account "multiple console ownership"? The fact is, HD has a greater marketshare than Wii. That's why the majority of games releasing on the 2 consoles are shared.

No it wouldn't stay the same, because if it had that marketshare it would have the mix of all fans/gamers... Just like PS2 did. Developers would HAVE to support it.

What flaws?...


You should take it into account because numerous people own both 360/PS3s so in effect your logic is flawed, if the are 30m 360s sold and 20m PS3s it doesn't mean that the are 50m potential customers which is why your attempt to group them together to mask market share is coming off a bit silly.

Around the Network
Arius Dion said:
Carl2291 said:
Arius Dion said:
Carl2291 said:
Arius Dion said:
Carl2291 said:
guiduc said:
BladeOfGod said:
they are just jealous cuz they're not getting Batman AA, RE5, DMC4, Bioshock, MW2 ( maybe in 2014 ), AC 2, Bayonetta and lots of other awesome 3rd party games

Could you stop trolling here?

If you were in that situation, maybe you too you would be angry. We just don't get the games we deserve. We can only count on Nintendo, unfortunately.

That's the thing though. Why do you automatically "deserve" those games? Because of the Wii sales? No, you don't.

You guys cheer when games like Carnival Games sell a load. When Cabella's Big Game Hunter is outselling other big games. When Just Dance is selling a ton. Do you think the developers don't see these sales that you see?

When a quality 3rd party "core" game struggles to hit a million in sales on the Wii, but then when a party minigame compilation manages to sell 4 times as much (and probably for a much cheaper budget)... You really think the developers will continue to go the "core" route, and spend tons of money, when they can go the "casual" route and make a quick bundle of cash from some minigame collection?

Nintendo, more than anyone are to blame for the lack of "quality" 3rd party support on Wii. Due to how the machine has been advertised, and the audience it has attracted. It's a win/lose situation. Win, because the machine sells a ton every week. Lose, because it isn't getting those franchises the fans are obviously wanting.

Even then, Nintendo could bring them to the Wii if they really wanted to. They have more money than you or i could shake a stick at. Look at what Sony and Microsoft have been willing to do this gen just to gain a tiny bit of exclusive content. If Ninty really wanted the support for the fans, they could get it.

LOL. Installed base has always been the argument for why major games go to a market leader, this gen is the exception (and maybe the NES gen as well to a similar degree) which begs the question. I don't see how Nintendo is at all to blame for third parties' offerings, third parties are their own entity and this is business. I'm not a fan of money hatting any way and neither it seems is Nintendo. But please name for me a quality 3rd party core game that has struggled to reach a million? (I guess we aren't even considering dev costs at this point right?)

There are consequences for not supporting the market leader, all these companies posting losses is the result of these decisions. Also the whole "throw a mini game and call it a day" has seemed to have backfired on Ubisoft..but I suppose that's also Nintendo's fault?

The market leader usually has the majority of marketshare. This gen, the Wii has lesser market share then the HD 'Twins', which coincidentally have a big "core" market, and also share the majority of there libraries.

Nintendo aren't solely to blame, but a large part of the blame lies on there shoulders. And i stand by that the marketting for Wii, is what has given it the lead but has also given it that audience that don't care for the big core 3rd party titles.

You aren't a fan of moneyhatting, i don't know all that many people who ARE fans of it... But if it gets you the goods, it is surely something to do. Microsoft have had no problem showing the cash this gen and they have stolen a HUGE piece of marketshare from Sony. While it isn't exactly the best thing to do... It provides results. And when you have piles of cash like Nintendo, it's not too much trouble to use some of it.

People are supporting the Wii though, just not with the titles the majority of "core" gamers want. And again... Why should they? They get VERY good sales on PS360 for a whole bunch of the games. PS360 have greater (and growing) marketshare. PS360 don't have a whole bunch of shovelware. PS360 have proven to have the market to support these kind of games.

As for Ubisoft, it was going to happen eventually to one of the big names. There is only so much market on the Wii that will buy party games and other random shovelware. But then... What if it happens to other big companies? Lack of shovelware (good), and a continued lack of core support(bad)? What then? What if NMH2 doesn't even reach the 500k expeced mark? Will that push Ubisoft even further away?

Edit: Sorry, forgot to give you a game, have 3... And i could find more
Muramasa: TDB
MadWorld
Dead Space: Extraction

Those 3 games would have done blockbuster numbers on an HD console? Also Wii is dangerously close to 50% marketshare does that matter? Probably not. Wii could have 60% and I doubt the situation would be any different. Also if developing for PS360 was so profitable why are studios closing down after 1 flop and larger devs are posting record losses? And if NMH1 was such a flop why on earth would there be a sequel?

Every third party game you find on Wii to "prove your point" will ultimately only prove mine ; )

Not possible to prove it... So it's pointless asking me. But another thing... They wouldn't be an a "console", they would be on multiple consoles, PS3 AND 360. Your exact words - "name for me a quality 3rd party core game that has struggled to reach a million"... And i gave you 3. Point proven.

Obviously it does matter. PS360 have the larger "core" userbase, and the majority of marketshare. Thus the developers will stay with them.

I never said it was profitable. I said that's where the main "core" userbase is. And i think they are much more likely to get a big hit (and profit) on PS360 than on Wii, simply because of that said market.

I never called NMH1 a flop. Stop trying to twist my words. I said they expect NMH to do 500k, which is true. But hey, it is funny how you don't have any answers for my questions...

What is your point exactly?

My point is the games you're bringing up would sell no better on any other platform or since you want to include TWO userbases to one, platform(s). If those are the games used to talk about quality third party support on Wii then your argument falls short. But it was already thin to begin with. And who says the majority of "core' audience (which btw, what is a "core" audience) is spread out between two seperate consoles when generally games like MK and NSMB are breaking records and selling more than multiplats combined..or are we calling those games casual now?

You can't prove that though... So you don't have a point.

"Core"? I dunno... Ask Ubisoft. When they said they were refocussing on the "core" market, they said they were going to focus more on PS3 and 360. Games like Assassin's Creed 2, Splinter Cell, Prince of Persia, Ghost Recon, Driver... Are "Core".

Mario has a mixed following. He relates to just about every gamer there is. Saying Mario is casual is daft. Saying Mario has a casual appeal, is right.



                            

Hold on, here's some food for thought:

The average decent HD game costs $15-30m; how many 3rd parties spent that much on a Wii game?
In terms of the games themselves, how many 3rd party Wii games are longer than 12 hours straight? Only XSeed titles....

The people who obviously like to rag on the Wii are in full force in this thread. I could make a thread right now and tell you why EVERY SINGLE 3rd party Wii game that has ever been complained about, underperformed, or outright FAILED has done so. But then again, logic, reason, and truth does not work on the internet of in the gaming industry.

Say the word and I'll PROVE it.



Leatherhat on July 6th, 2012 3pm. Vita sales:"3 mil for COD 2 mil for AC. Maybe more. "  thehusbo on July 6th, 2012 5pm. Vita sales:"5 mil for COD 2.2 mil for AC."

The Ghost of RubangB said:
theprof00 said:

famousringo said:
Let me tell youa story of two delis, located across the street from each other. The Wii Deli specializes in club sandwiches, and the HD Deli makes great big deluxe submarine sandwiches.

Threepee, a sandwich maker working at HD Deli, is having a hard time making ends meet. He makes a mean submarine sandwich, but there just aren't always enough people hungry for a submarine sandwich to pay the bills.

Threepee looks across the street, and sees people lined up to get into Wii Deli. Seeing dollar signs, Threepee walks across the street and asks the proprietor if he could use another sandwich maker. The propietor agrees, noting that he's having trouble meeting demand and customers like variety.

So Threepee starts selling sandwiches, only he can't afford to buy all the ingredients that he puts into his submarine sandwiches. That should be okay, because if these people wanted a submarine sandwich, they'd be across the street anyway. He doesn't want to compete with the propietor's club sandwiches, because he thinks people will just turn up their nose and buy from him. So Threepee makes cheese sandwiches: Just a couple pieces of Wonderbread with a slice of processed cheese in the middle.

At first, things go well. Customers are tired of waiting in line for club sandwiches, so they try a cheese sandwich for a little variety. Threepee thinks this is great, and starts making more and more cheese sandwiches.

But the customers aren't enthused. Where's the tomato? The turkey? It's a little unsatisfying. So they go back to waiting in line for club sandwiches.

Threepee's response to this development is anger. He's spent a lot of money on Wonderbread and processed cheese. Rather than trying to make club sandwiches, or coming up with a sandwich that's different, but just as satisfying, Threepee angrily blames the customers of the Wii Deli for not buying his sandwiches. He tells them that he thinks they're ignorant people who don't even like sandwiches and storms out of the deli.

Now tell me, do the customers of the Wii Deli have any reason to find Threepee annoying?

Except that grilled cheese is delicious, and when he throws in some chicken or tuna or tomato, people say "whatever, it's not a wiideli club sandwich". So, he tries making some wiideli sandwiches after thorough testing to suit the townspeople's tastes. So, he makes 3 new sandiwches and a lot of people buy them. He tries making some more new ones and people like them, but he only makes a few cents on every sandwich. But that's ok, he has established a brand and still has his 3 sandwiches. The next month, wiideli starts a new promotion: "Re-introducing the original sandwich". Threepee's sales drop into the toilet. Threepee looks at the situation and says "fine, I'll just sell exactly what they were just selling a month ago". Except nobody buys them.

Frustrated, he starts looking at his options. He then realizes that they live on an island in the pacific, and there are only 10 possible ingredients located there. He remembers that he already tried all the other combinations and summizes that he should try just putting more of each ingredient in each sandwich. So, he goes to his distributor and they tell him, "sorry, nobody is allowed to exceed the allowed amount. Sandwiches cannot exceed a certain weight, and you are already pushing the limits". So, threepee decides to move to the mainland. Even on the boat, the club sandwiches are three times bigger and are made from a selection of 50 ingredients. Completely exhausted, he wonders why he moved to the island in the first place.

Threepee moves back to the mainland and works for the big submarine sandwich empire, takes out a loan to buy 100 new ingredients and introduces his biggest sandwich yet, with many Lairs and Lairs of meats and cheeses, and even adds some expensive rare giant enemy crabmeat.  When he releases his new sandwich, he invites all the food critics to come try it out, and lets them now that there's a stupid island out there full of morons who wouldn't know good sandwiches if they crawled up their ass, died, and blamed Wii Fit.

Threepee's sandwich tastes like shit, costs too much, and makes one of the food critics vomit.  Another critic says "Hey aren't you that cheese sandwich moron who said we don't know what good sandwiches are?"  Sandwich-goers of all creeds abandon him.  Threepee is now homeless.  And as he wanders the street looking for crumbs, he can look off into the Pacific, and see a great island building a glorious tower into the heavens, with new kinds of sandwiches that don't even need bread!  Some are open-faced, and some use lettuce on the outside, a crazy insult to the sandwiches of the oldschool!  But since everybody is so fat from all those giant submarine sandwiches, the Island introduces the Atkins Diet, and lettuce sandwiches take over the world.

This story needs to keep going. It's the most entertaining part of the whole thread.

 



Quem disse que a boca é tua?

Qual é, Dadinho...?

Dadinho é o caralho! Meu nome agora é Zé Pequeno!

theRepublic said:
Carl2291 said:
theRepublic said:
Carl2291 said:
Arius Dion said:

LOL. Installed base has always been the argument for why major games go to a market leader, this gen is the exception (and maybe the NES gen as well to a similar degree) which begs the question. I don't see how Nintendo is at all to blame for third parties' offerings, third parties are their own entity and this is business. I'm not a fan of money hatting any way and neither it seems is Nintendo. But please name for me a quality 3rd party core game that has struggled to reach a million? (I guess we aren't even considering dev costs at this point right?)

There are consequences for not supporting the market leader, all these companies posting losses is the result of these decisions. Also the whole "throw a mini game and call it a day" has seemed to have backfired on Ubisoft..but I suppose that's also Nintendo's fault?

Nintendo aren't solely to blame, but a large part of the blame lies on there shoulders. And i stand by that the marketting for Wii, is what has given it the lead but has also given it that audience that don't care for the big core 3rd party titles.

What big, core third party titles?  Resident Evil 4?  Monster Hunter 3?  Call of Duty?

What big, core third party title performed so poorly?  I can't seem to recall one.  I know quite a few low budget, niche third party games which underperformed according to this forum, but I'm not sure what games you are talking about.

You do realise that those FIVE games you just gave me ammount to total sales of just over SIX Million?

Apparently sales of over a million per game are not good anymore?  Shall I alert the media?

You do realize we are talking about the Wii, and not the 360 or PS3 where you have to break a million just to break even in some cases, right?

Sales of over a million are good. I never said it wasn't good.

What i was picking at, was how many titles there are and how many sales they have gained combined...

Should i get the biggest 3rd party core titles from PS3 and 360 to show you the sales, and give another reason why they should/are staying on those consoles?



                            

Demotruk said:
Carl2291 said:

You do realise that those FIVE games you just gave me ammount to total sales of just over SIX Million?

They also amount to two two-year-late ports, two unarcadey rail shooters and a title that's released only in Japan and has outsold every HD game bar one.

2 year late ports, yes. But the highest quality games of there genre also.

Unarcadey rail shooters? Call of Duty... "Unarcedey rail shooter"? And you think you deserve these games?