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Forums - Microsoft Discussion - Project Natal drops hardware Motion detection to save costs!

This means absolutly nothing until we get closer to launch and actually start seeing actual software.



Its libraries that sell systems not a single game.

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selnor said:
drkohler said:
selnor said:
drkohler said:
selnor said:

.. Natal hardware itaself evalutes trillions of body configurations every frame.

No it obviously doesn't. Where did you get that idea from?

From M$ at CES less than 24 hours ago. LOL. You all should see more Natal CES stuff. LOL. At least this thread is funny. The more hate a product gets. History tells us they are usually HUGELY successful.

ok.. since you seem to be a little short of working brain cells, let's do some wag math. Suppose a "body configuration" consists of only 12 data points a processor/fpga has to find and "evaluate" and store back per frame. We need about (1 trillion) * 30fps * 12 data points * 3clock cycles (an incredibly fast fpga)= roughly 1000 trillion operation per second. That's several 1000 XBox processors running in parallel. Where do you fit that into your Xbox? (What really happened is that the developers _evaluated millions of frames_ (with possibly "trillions of body configuration") and condensed the results into an AI database. Wasn't there something said about resulting in 31 body configurations?).

 

Now did you even watch CES? Firstly the very same video goes on to say that Natal is the only product of it's type to actually realtime track the entire body. Unlike other products in the field ( clearly referring to Eyetoy ) where he says " Until now, if you wanted to measure the movements of parts of somebody's body you'd need some kind of device like a remote ( wii ) or a marker ( Eyetoy + wand ). The player doesnt need to fit their actions with the technology like before. Natal changes for the player.

Now for the BIGGEST statement in the video. EXACTLY THE SAME STATEMENT AS AT E3 09!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

50% Hardware and 50% Software. Oh sh*t the article in OP loses all credibility. It obviously hasnt lost anything since E3. So either the decision was made to lose some chip 2 or 3 years ago. Or no chips have been lost at all. Becasue it's the same as said at E3. Not 40& Hardware not 30 - 70 it's still as of Jan 06th 50-50.

Oh and Natal tracks 48 points of your body. Confirmed. Sigh.

 

Wow man, you REALLY care about this stuff.  I don't see why you are arguing that this cannot possibly be true; in my eyes lowering the price point is a good thing.  You keep referring to CES 2010 as having made the same statement about NATAL as E3 2009.  I disagree:

E3 2009:

"Project Natal" sensor. "Project Natal" is the world's first system to combine an RGB camera, depth sensor, multiarray microphone and custom processor running proprietary software that brings "Project Natal" experiences to every Xbox 360 console. The "Project Natal" sensor tracks full-body movement and individual voices, creating controller-free fun and social entertainment available only on Xbox 360.

CES 2010:

"Project Natal" sensor. "Project Natal" combines an RGB camera, depth sensor and multiarray microphone running proprietary software that brings "Project Natal" experiences to every Xbox 360 console. The "Project Natal" sensor tracks full-body movement and individual voices, turning you into the controller for social entertainment available only on Xbox 360.

 

See the difference?  Good day sir.

Source



well that kinda sucks



Long Live SHIO!

People complaining about something, and they have no idea what the final version is like, or what the games will be like. Just exactly how many games use full CPU power on 360 and PS3? Probably not many.



JaggedSac said:
Raze said:
So, does this mean it's comparable to current motion sensing, like Eyetoy and the Ubicam that's out with MyShape? Or does it still have this massive increases in features over those systems?

Natal will have the exact same functionality as before, the only difference is that the 360 CPU will be doing what the Natal chip was before.  So Natal still uses IR to determine depth and location of people, which was the advantage it had over Eyetoy and Ubicam.

then the eye toy uses accelerometers and gyropscope for 1-1 tracking. actually the motion controls works even the control hidden from the camera.

and we already seen playstation eye working without the control. like Eyepet UI.



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Videogirl said:
kitler53 said:
JaggedSac said:
^^LOL. Looks like Natal games where motion detection is the main control method, are going to look like Wii games :) I would rather that not be the case, but Wii fans don't seem to mind.

lol, that's being a little too harsh don't you think?  Has there been any word on how much processing power this bone structure calculation requires?

One thing's for sure without the bone structure we will never get to see again the amazing 1:1 Natal full body tracking ^^ :

 

Actually, now that they removed the "Bones" you can do that easily



I live for the burn...and the sting of pleasure...
I live for the sword, the steel, and the gun...

- Wasteland - The Mission.

selnor said:
drkohler said:
selnor said:
drkohler said:
selnor said:

.. Natal hardware itaself evalutes trillions of body configurations every frame.

No it obviously doesn't. Where did you get that idea from?

From M$ at CES less than 24 hours ago. LOL. You all should see more Natal CES stuff. LOL. At least this thread is funny. The more hate a product gets. History tells us they are usually HUGELY successful.

ok.. since you seem to be a little short of working brain cells, let's do some wag math. Suppose a "body configuration" consists of only 12 data points a processor/fpga has to find and "evaluate" and store back per frame. We need about (1 trillion) * 30fps * 12 data points * 3clock cycles (an incredibly fast fpga)= roughly 1000 trillion operation per second. That's several 1000 XBox processors running in parallel. Where do you fit that into your Xbox? (What really happened is that the developers _evaluated millions of frames_ (with possibly "trillions of body configuration") and condensed the results into an AI database. Wasn't there something said about resulting in 31 body configurations?).

 

Now did you even watch CES? Firstly the very same video goes on to say that Natal is the only product of it's type to actually realtime track the entire body. Unlike other products in the field ( clearly referring to Eyetoy ) where he says " Until now, if you wanted to measure the movements of parts of somebody's body you'd need some kind of device like a remote ( wii ) or a marker ( Eyetoy + wand ). The player doesnt need to fit their actions with the technology like before. Natal changes for the player.

Now for the BIGGEST statement in the video. EXACTLY THE SAME STATEMENT AS AT E3 09!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

50% Hardware and 50% Software. Oh sh*t the article in OP loses all credibility. It obviously hasnt lost anything since E3. So either the decision was made to lose some chip 2 or 3 years ago. Or no chips have been lost at all. Becasue it's the same as said at E3. Not 40& Hardware not 30 - 70 it's still as of Jan 06th 50-50.

Oh and Natal tracks 48 points of your body. Confirmed. Sigh.

I can't help but think this ^^is going to eventually bite you on the ass.

Anyone would think MS making such a move would be a positive thing as it would greatly reduce the price of natal and make it easier to achieve success.

But no, not you.

By the way the specs have been released and guess what, there is no mention of a chip on the 2010 spec that was present on the 2009 spec.

May be nothing in it but it's looking more likely that you are wrong...and you wanted this thread closed.

 

 



Porcupine_I said:

Project Natal, the camera thing for the Xbox 360 that tracks you every movement and lets you ‘interact’ with ‘things’ (hi, Mylo) has ‘dropped a chip’ according to GI this afternoon. The chip, responsible for managing Natal’s ‘bone system’ will be replaced by a software solution to save costs whilst still hopefully maintaining that hallowed 100ms lag. The responsibility for doing whatever the ‘bone system’ chip actually did now falls on one of the 360’s Xenon processors, taking up valuable clock cycles and other technical stuff.

Richard Leadbetter, editor of Digital Foundry said that “the full Natal hardware/sensor combo always looked like an expensive proposition in a market where Microsoft really needs to turn a profit. The notion of offloading the processing to the 360 CPU in the name of lower costs and easier upgradability makes sense. Patching up older games to run with the new hardware now looks rather unlikely unless they have the CPU time to spare.” Sounds like the move has cut costs but limited the scope of the system a little.

 

Source: http://www.thesixthaxis.com/2010/01/07/natal-drops-a-chip/

 

Interesting article.  Partly because it looks like it is from a pro-Playstation website.  In regards to the updating of older games, I could see they put motion control code in the operating system, able to be turned off when needed, if a game doesn't use it.



People keep saying the specs are released. I have seen no specs. Just generalized statements mentioned in an interview. Can someone show me these "specs".



selnor said:
NJ5 said:
10-15% of 360's CPU = almost half a core just for the motion processing.

Unless they meant 10-15% of one core. But that's not what the wording of the article seems to imply.

Please feel free to see CES 2010 on Natal. The only software Natal has is for limb interpretation and joint angles. Thats it. Confirmed by M$ less than 24 hours ago. Close the goddamn thread.

Since when is what a corporation says a reason to shut down a thread?  If Microsoft is blowing smoke, they need to be called on it.