By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - Microsoft Discussion - NATAL Changing the WorldatCES 2010!!!

Dark Chaos said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
Lord Flashheart said:
CGI-Quality said:
What's with all the bashing of this product? It's definitely got some push behind it. Even if it doesn't "set the world on fire" (to some people at least), how about we give it a shot before stamping the word "flop" on it.

I, for one, would love to see this concept take off, even if it doesn't become the next Wii-like phenomenon.

It's because Sony didn't come up with it and have a rival coming out to Natal.

It's also because Nintendo has something in a similar vein that no-one else can have anything similar. Even though the wiimote wasn't the first out there.

 

It's the insecure rival owners hating it that would be loving it if it was on their machine.

No, since it wouldn't be the same if Nintendo was trying to implement it, the problem with incumbents trying to put out an innovation is they try and rework it until its most profitable to their already existing core customer, and the thing is, even MS admits that its going to try and use NATAL to target the core, this is the problem with NATAL

So you work at MS where you know that the games being released are only targeted to the core. That explains all those ads where it shows families using Natal..no wait it doesnt. Unless you have a link where MS admits that you are flamebaiting

 

Wrong, MS themselves have already said that they intend to target the Core first with NATAL

“Let’s start with the core users to really get their attention and get them invested and committed to us as a platform."

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/microsoft-hardcore-games-easiest-to-sell

 



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Around the Network
JaggedSac said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
JaggedSac said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
JaggedSac said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:

I can predict the future by using business strategy, read Christensen, of the Harvard business school, and you'll understand.

No the reason people hate is because a product is supposed to satisfy the need for a job to be fulfilled, when it doesn't thats when people point out its flaws

What are the needs of gaming?  What need did Wii Fit provide the satisfaction to?

People who don;t want a game that takes too much time out of their life, but can help them be a bit active, these gamers don't want to be immersed in a game world, they want something that will work within their lives

Those sound like wants, not needs.

a definition of want is to be in need of something, so it can be one in the same

I am going to disagree and say that your definition fits firmly in the economical want category.  No one knew they wanted a Wii Fit until the Wii Fit was created.  There was never a need for people to be able to stand on a board and interact with a television set.

Except there is, its called the fitness market, fitness devices and videos show that there is a need



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Avinash_Tyagi said:
JaggedSac said:

I am going to disagree and say that your definition fits firmly in the economical want category.  No one knew they wanted a Wii Fit until the Wii Fit was created.  There was never a need for people to be able to stand on a board and interact with a television set.

Except there is, its called the fitness market, fitness devices and videos show that there is a need

Ok, so you have defined at least one need for Natal.  And it has the capability to satisfy that need greater than any other comparable device on the market.



JaggedSac said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
JaggedSac said:

I am going to disagree and say that your definition fits firmly in the economical want category.  No one knew they wanted a Wii Fit until the Wii Fit was created.  There was never a need for people to be able to stand on a board and interact with a television set.

Except there is, its called the fitness market, fitness devices and videos show that there is a need

Ok, so you have defined at least one need for Natal.  And it has the capability to satisfy that need greater than any other comparable device on the market.

Again we get back to the issue of values and processes, the idea of a motion camera like NATAL may have the capability to reach out to such an audience, but not the way MS is trying to implement it, see the issue with incumbents trying to bring an innovation is they target it at their core in a way that actually destroys its disruptive abilities, Nintendo when they made Wii fit, actively designed the hardware around the software, with the intent of satisfying the need that I discussed earlier, MS doesn't know how to do that, nor are they even trying to launch NATAL in that manner, they themselves admit they are going to bring it to th e core first then try and move to the "casuals", like birdmen, without understanding the values and processes that made Nintendo so successful.



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

Avinash_Tyagi said:
JaggedSac said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
JaggedSac said:

I am going to disagree and say that your definition fits firmly in the economical want category.  No one knew they wanted a Wii Fit until the Wii Fit was created.  There was never a need for people to be able to stand on a board and interact with a television set.

Except there is, its called the fitness market, fitness devices and videos show that there is a need

Ok, so you have defined at least one need for Natal.  And it has the capability to satisfy that need greater than any other comparable device on the market.

Again we get back to the issue of values and processes, the idea of a motion camera like NATAL may have the capability to reach out to such an audience, but not the way MS is trying to implement it, see the issue with incumbents trying to bring an innovation is they target it at their core in a way that actually destroys its disruptive abilities, Nintendo when they made Wii fit, actively designed the hardware around the software, with the intent of satisfying the need that I discussed earlier, MS doesn't know how to do that, nor are they even trying to launch NATAL in that manner, they themselves admit they are going to bring it to th e core first then try and move to the "casuals", like birdmen, without understanding the values and processes that made Nintendo so successful.

http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/natal-not-targeting-existing-casual-gamers

Microsoft's Shane Kim has said that Project Natal is designed to target the "60 per cent of households where a videogame console doesn't exist", rather than current casual gamers "or even PS2 people who haven't upgraded".

 

That doesn't sound like they are mainly targeting their core gamers to me.



Around the Network

I would also like to add that you did not fully include the entire quote that you referenced earlier, so I will do it for you.

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/microsoft-hardcore-games-easiest-to-sell

"It's a continuation of a strategy we've been articulating for a long time, which is that we have a powerful piece of hardware that enables a lot of different experiences," he added. "Let's start with the core users to really get their attention and get them invested and committed to us as a platform. Then as we look to broaden to new audiences, we have the hardware capacity and technology innovation to continue to evolve the experience, whether that's by bringing things like Facebook, Netflix and Twitter to give people more reasons to turn the console on, or with Natal in the future, with a more social, casual and interactive controller-free gaming experience that something like Natal brings."

 

So to clarify what they are saying, they started by targeting the core gamer at the start of the 360 life cycle to get a foot hold and now they are broadening that experience to new audiences via Facebook, Netflix, Twitter, and now Natal.



^Again, the issue isn't whether they are trying to get the "casual" audience, the issue is how they are going about it, they can say that they are targeting 60%, or trying to make it more social and "casual", but what you fail to note is they are first targeting the core, that's the very problem, you don't target the core and move down to the downmarket, that just proves my point about the wrong values and processes, and why they will fail. Also by targeting casuals, they are admitting a second flaw, they are going to try and use the failing casual games strategy that is crushing the third parties on the Wii, rather than trying to understand what the downmarket wants.



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)

First off, are you under the impression that they are not targeting the casual market first with Natal?

So it is a bad idea to try and extend the 360's audience by providing a unique experience via Natal? Or are you saying it cannot be done due to the fact that MS has already courted the core market and cannot now extend to the casual?



Avinash_Tyagi said:
JaggedSac said:
Avinash_Tyagi said:
JaggedSac said:

I am going to disagree and say that your definition fits firmly in the economical want category.  No one knew they wanted a Wii Fit until the Wii Fit was created.  There was never a need for people to be able to stand on a board and interact with a television set.

Except there is, its called the fitness market, fitness devices and videos show that there is a need

Ok, so you have defined at least one need for Natal.  And it has the capability to satisfy that need greater than any other comparable device on the market.

Again we get back to the issue of values and processes, the idea of a motion camera like NATAL may have the capability to reach out to such an audience, but not the way MS is trying to implement it, see the issue with incumbents trying to bring an innovation is they target it at their core in a way that actually destroys its disruptive abilities, Nintendo when they made Wii fit, actively designed the hardware around the software, with the intent of satisfying the need that I discussed earlier, MS doesn't know how to do that, nor are they even trying to launch NATAL in that manner, they themselves admit they are going to bring it to th e core first then try and move to the "casuals", like birdmen, without understanding the values and processes that made Nintendo so successful.

Microsoft are making Natal both the hardware and the software available for the 3rd party developers to develop. In the case of Natal the hardware was created in line with the software without the software the hardware is useless. As the boffin said in his 15 seconds of fame when describing the depth cam and how it defines the points on the skeletal.

What Natal does which is clever is remove the need for a board like we see in Wii Fit but more than that it builds upon it, not only does the camera sense motion but also the depth and skeletal which will only make for a more interesting and more challenging potential for a fitness package. Now whether a 3rd party can produce the software that engages like the Wii Fit package remains to be seen.

Lets imagine for a second. A Natal device could not only record the number of leg raises it could also assess how well the leg was raised. That I believe is the potential game changer element Natal has over the competition.

I think the Natal camera should always be referred to as a depth cam so as to emphasis the difference, maybe then the PS Eye comparisons can stop.



W.L.B.B. Member, Portsmouth Branch.

(Welsh(Folk) Living Beyond Borders)

Winner of the 2010 VGC Holiday sales prediction thread with an Average 1.6% accuracy rating. I am indeed awesome.

Kinect as seen by PS3 owners ...if you can pick at it   ...post it ... Did I mention the 360 was black and Shinny? Keeping Sigs obscure since 2007, Passed by the Sig police 5July10.
JaggedSac said:
First off, are you under the impression that they are not targeting the casual market first with Natal?

So it is a bad idea to try and extend the 360's audience by providing a unique experience via Natal? Or are you saying it cannot be done due to the fact that MS has already courted the core market and cannot now extend to the casual?

They themselves have stated that core is first.

 

Actually trying to market to their core first is a bad idea, first off the core are the least likely to welcome the new innovation, if they are willing to adopt it, they'll be Wii owners already, secondly core games are the least likely to benefit from the innovation.

 

Now when it comes to reaching the downmarket, yes they'll have a hard time, what is a strength to them in the core market are weaknesses in the downmarket, the downmarket has different values, Nintendo already has learned the lessons of the downmarket, its their strength, but MS and the third parties it depends on so much do not, which is why they have such trouble with that audience, NATAL will reflect those problems in its software selection for the downmarket, and the core will see little benefit to NATAL in their own games.



 

Predictions:Sales of Wii Fit will surpass the combined sales of the Grand Theft Auto franchiseLifetime sales of Wii will surpass the combined sales of the entire Playstation family of consoles by 12/31/2015 Wii hardware sales will surpass the total hardware sales of the PS2 by 12/31/2010 Wii will have 50% marketshare or more by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  It was a little over 48% only)Wii will surpass 45 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2008 (I was wrong!!  Nintendo Financials showed it fell slightly short of 45 million shipped by end of 2008)Wii will surpass 80 Million in lifetime sales by the end of 2009 (I was wrong!! Wii didn't even get to 70 Million)