Kasz216 said:
Netyaroze said:
Kasz216 said:
Netyaroze said:
@kasz216
Ok no proof but atleast some indication. But I still think that a government like USA shouldnt be tricked by anyone. Maybe the CIA is not as powerful as I thought. But even if he made it seem that he had Weapons of Massdestruction why the hell they just care in Iraq ? North Korea has them and nothing happens.
The USA said yes to the rules of the UN but the UN said there is not enough evidence for a war but the USA proced further. And even the US citizens think it was a mistake. And the USA is the leading Country in the world and want to stand for freedom democrazy and human rights. They are ofcourse measured completly different then a country like Iraq . They are the leader and have responsibilitys and they have to be BETTER then the rest of the world. The US superiority was always a moralic superirority atleast until the Vietnam war.
I think what vlad meant it was basically a terrorism against UK it was per definition really terrorism even if the motivation was another one.
I obviously dont agree with such a statement but i think Iraq war was a huge mistake and USA will have to pay long enough for it because it heated on terrorism and not calmed down it.
Had the US some real evidence for the war or was it just hearsay. Had they pictures from satelittes or from agents ?
And its the same you said why the hell I want a proof that bush is innocent. But the USA had no real proof that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction. They made a psyhcological profil from hitler and were able to predict some actions they made this for saddam hussein too but why the hell so they could have known he would make up such a shit to defend his country.
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Now your just being ridiculious.
It's fairly obvious you don't want an hoenst discussion and just want to believe what you want to beleive.
As for North Korea... they actually did care... they tried to handle things diplomatically... and look how that ended. Where was the UN on that one.
I was against the war in Iraq when it was planned. It still doesn't give people the right to make up bullshit excuses like "he made it up!" for apparently no reason.
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Ok lets try to recapitulate.
1:
Do you agree with me that Bushs decision was based on wrong Informations ?
If no explain me why.
Do you agree that the wrong informations where delievered by the CIA ?
If no explain me why
Do you agree that it was a mistake from the CIA that they delievered wrong information or from bush that he made a decison based on papers which had no real evidence.
This three things are the basic things for my argumentation everything else is opinion if such a mistake is allowed to happen in such aa delicate question which decides over thousend of lives (american and iraqi)
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1) Yes
2) Yes
3) No. It's the CIA's job to report everything and from where the sources came from. (Which they did.)
4) Not quite. The problem wasn't "hard proof". If "hard proof" was needed it would be impossible. Do you know how hard it would be to sneak someone into a classified nuclear base to get physical proof or copy documents? That's ridiculious.
Bush's mistake was that other intellegence agencies in the US... and even some people in the CIA were saying "This is just one report they may or may not have anything."
However, he and the UN went to Saddam... they asked for inspectors... and Saddam... stupid as HE was... refused to let people see... nothing, since he wanted Iran to think he had Nukes.
From there, sanctions would of made sense. However considering the North Korea mess, Bush overreacted, probably for fear that it would hurt him politically since democrats could say "He says he is big on national security but he let two of our enemies... that he called the axis of evil! Get nukes!'
It reminds me of this upcoming healthcare bill... Obama promised healthcare, couldn't get it done in his own party... so he's passing that abomination.
Regardless, had the only intellegence he had said "They have weapons." I could understand it. (IE the NSA and FBI saying they either thought they did, or didn't know.)
Had they bombed and Saddam still refused to let people in. I could understand that. (Since, if they were bombing and still threating invasion Saddam you'd think would give in even if he was posturing.)
As it was... it was a mistake. Though not for the reasons your stating.
Despite the disasters and poor judgement that led to the war and even worse handling during the war and rebuilding...
It looks like somethign good will come from it. In the long run. Ironically this will be the "good war."
Which is more then could be said for Afghanistan... which was always a failed cause... since the US allied with the walords from the start of that war. Even if Afghanistan doesn't fall back into the hands of the Taliban... the people who are in charge now are no better.
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ok it was not intentionaly "bad". I believe he didnt wanted the war. And I probably would have made the same mistakes.
Humans make mistakes right! And can he be blamed for making the wrong choices even if there was no way to tell which choice was the right one ?
If someone at the Nasa messed up and picked the wrong choice and 5 people explode in the stratosphere he gets fired. maybe even not for his mistakes but just out of principle.
There are certain areas where nobody is allowed to make mistakes. Such a rare position is the President of the USA. Especially not if the mistakes have such horrible consequences. Irak war costs 2 Billion Dollars per week and until now it was 670 Billion Dollar enough to give every Us citizen a free health insurance plus the countless dead us soldiers plus the victims.
He maybe had good intentions and I believe that but this is no apology. Not in his position.
I think you dont know a lot of muslims. I meet a lot of them from Plastina from irak saudi arabia turky lebanon from everywhere. And some of them where out of conservative familys. Not open minded which travel around a lot especially not to the USA. I know what they were talking You think something good could come out of this ? Yes believed it too in the past. Let me say one thing the muslims are divided between open minded and extremist. They maybe accept the western life style with mc donalds notebooks and Internet but they have the same opinion their father had. To question the father is not even possible they wouldnt think about such a thing. Its just not possible.
A lot of them HATE the USA infact its cool to hate the USA its standard and even if they know nothing about politics they hate the usa out of principle. And this became stronger after Iraq war. And they think that the people in the States are Evil. You think something good can come out of this in the long run ? Yes in the very long run 200 years maybe. Its not like in germany that the germans saw the americans as a blessing the arabs see them as a curse.
Ofcourse not all of them and not in every muslim country but its still a lot. I dont think that this war was a benefit in any possible way.
I could talk about it and obama made things better but actually most of the (closed minded ones) dont care. You wont believe what they partially are thinking. Infact they unite against the big evil even if they had wars between each other. They really think that USA wants to destroy and kill all muslims this is no joke for them USA are something like Hitler for USA was. Iraq and Guantanamo (which clearly was against US constitution so they build it in Cuba) is the weakspot of the US because this is where they can question the US intentions.
And its always a point of view if you were born there and not in the USA you would see it exactly like them.
We have no chance to really come to an end because there is simply no right or wrong for some its wrong for some its right. And for me its a mistake which should have led to some sort of punishment the best punishment would have been no relection.
you want me to not think it was bushs mistake. But who did the mistake because it was clearly a mistake you agree with me so who was wrong. It just happened ? nobody made a mistake ? Saddam caused the war because he lied because he thougth US was just joking with the war ? Do you think this could have happened with his father ? or with Obama or Clinton or someone else ? Ok this could have happened with Nixon.
And to North Korea the americans could used the same arguments to make a war against north korea like they used in iraq war but this time everybody would knew that its true. but infact the US cant do a thing because China takes care of north korea.
It would be the best if the US would try to focus on africa we all should focus on africa because this is really the hell the middle east is nothing compared to this.
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