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Forums - Gaming Discussion - Games don't need stories.

Mr. sickVisionz said:
It's comparable to a song without lyrics. You have to really hit it out of the park to make that work. A game with no story needs to be like old school mario or sonic: by design, you will never be bored at any one part and the the stages are pretty short (10 minutes or less).

With no story, it's 100% gameplay that motivates the player to keep playing. If that gameplay ever falters, you have nothing to fall back on to keep the player moving forward.

Several ways here it works:

1. You develop a fun play mechanic (or set of play mechanics) that you put into good level design that ramps up well, and is executed well (think Tetris as an example).

2. You create a sandbox environment that is procedurally generated that the player jumps into and creates their own path.  Sandboxes can be in the case of massive-multiplayer online RPGs with no set story to follow, sim/god games where you transform the world, or a dungeon crawl like Nethack where the goals are to level up your character.  Borderlands woulod also fit into the last one.

3. Provide multiplayer games which have goals for the players to accomplish, even if it is something as simple as getting to a finish line first or fragging more opponents than you get fragged.

 

There may be others.  In the former, you are in the area of arcade games, and you can give the players goals they try to accomplish, with fun play mechanics.  In the later, you give the players a rich enough environment where they can chart their own path and make their own stories.  The game doesn't come with a story, but players provide it.  In the last one, it is based on human competition.



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Pyro as Bill said:
Seece said:
Pyro as Bill said:
Replayability > Music >>>>>> Graphics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Story

Who plays a game for it's story? The stories in games make horror B-movies look like Oscar nominees.

I've seen some posts from you, but this takes the biscuit.

http://vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php

I think this list agrees with me.

It's true that Pokemon's story kinda sucked, but it still had one.



...

richardhutnik said:

To confirm the subject of this thread, I did a quick check over on Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game

Yes, I know Wikipedia isn't a perfect source, but it is generally in the ballpark. 

In that entry, you see ONE place where stories are brought up, and that is "role-playing games".  Beyond that, not a single mention of story is involved.  One can throw in "adventure games" as another possible genre that stories are part of, and considering how adventure games have been assimilated by action games, one sees what appears to be more and more importance of story to the action game title.

Several things come out of games not needing stories:

* You can have a really good videogame that doesn't necessarily have a great story.

* You can have great games that actually have NO story involved with them.  Players can come up with their own war stories from games they played, but these are created experiences players have, rather than something written by someone else.

* There is potential folly when the videogame industry puts more and more focus on elements that go into movie-making, in hopes they will produce hits.  I would say it is close to being on par with an excessive focus on improving raw horsepower to put out better graphics, and not focusing on art direction and coming up with a good looking style.  You get diminishing returns in what you are doing by doing this, until you reach a place where you will never recover your costs.  In short, how does hiring a great cast, having great writers, and high production value make up for bad controls, stupid enemy AI, and stupid level design that is beyond frustrating to defeat?

* Stories are a narrative told by someone that holds the interest of the person listening or viewing the story.  When people play, they have a degree of freedom over their action, and are rewarded for performing proper actions.  Both tend to work against one another, but can come together also.  They can come together and be great, but isn't there an increasing chance that one element or the other will end up overriding the other?  I see in Borderlands, for example, you have Skag creatures dropping ammo for your weapons.  In what universe of logical and believable storytelling do unintelligent creatures drop ammo for weapons?  If you saw that in a movie, would you claim that the movie is great, or it is beyond stupid?  In Borderlands, as a game, it works, and is a useful addition to the game, that gives you compelling reason to keep playing.

* Exactly what is the story in Chess, Checkers, Poker, Spades, Monopoly or Scrabble?  Are these games?  I find them in the games section of stores.  Any idea how exactly they could benefit from adding a story that was written by an award-winning writer?  How about Tetris or Pac Man, on the videogame front?

* Is it entirely possible that the reason why we have failed to get any decent movies from games, is that games don't lend well to the creation of movies based on them?  We are now possibly seeing that we may end up getting some good movies based on games, because videogames have been embedding more and more narrative into them?  I am thinking Prince of Persia here as a possibility.  One aspect of this I see is that a good movie based on a game may end up being hardly like the game it is based on.

Anyhow, just my two cents here.  I am curious to see if anyone else has any other opinion on this.

Of course you can have a game without a story. There are tons of games that focus solely on gameplay. However, I applaud the trend of adding both RPG and story elements to the other genres. Especially adventure games. Heck if they aren't going to have at least a minor story in an FPS they might as well cut the solo mode out altogether.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of their first breath to the moment of their last.



libellule said:

great thread

if you like this Miner: Dig Deep (I watched it on youtube, didnt know this gale before)

then, go take an Amiga emulator and try to find "PP Hammer"

It is just a great oldschool gem ...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsOzmPx-ehs

dont watch, play it ;)

(good atmosphere and music too)

EDIT : yeah first level are easy but this will not last

That looks more like an platformer with some digging.  Miner: Dig Deep is more like Dig Dug, without the monsters and some RPGish grinding thrown in.  The board is different each time you play.  It doesn't have levels, per-se (it doesn't even have level design).  You can beat the game and go again, with your equipment you had for the prior run.  I am thinking the best way to describe it is an arcade resource management game.  Here are video on it:

Starting out:

 

As you play through:



Seece said:
Pyro as Bill said:
Replayability > Music >>>>>> Graphics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Story

Who plays a game for it's story? The stories in games make horror B-movies look like Oscar nominees.

I've seen some posts from you, but this takes the biscuit.

Speaking of biscuits, do biscuits need stories?



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Pyro as Bill said:
Seece said:
Pyro as Bill said:
Replayability > Music >>>>>> Graphics >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Story

Who plays a game for it's story? The stories in games make horror B-movies look like Oscar nominees.

I've seen some posts from you, but this takes the biscuit.

http://vgchartz.com/worldtotals.php

I think this list agrees with me.

How many of those in the top 10 actually have stories?  What is the storyline behind Wii Sports?  And does Super Mario Bros. have a story, or does it have a goal (rescue the princess)?  If a goal is a story, does that make a grocery list a novel?



dharh said:

Of course you can have a game without a story. There are tons of games that focus solely on gameplay. However, I applaud the trend of adding both RPG and story elements to the other genres. Especially adventure games. Heck if they aren't going to have at least a minor story in an FPS they might as well cut the solo mode out altogether.

Are we better off if the stories suck?  I will agree if a GOOD story, properly told, is there, then things will likely be better.  But if the story is poor, then you have to rely on gameplay, and other reasons to play, to compel you to play.



richardhutnik said:
dharh said:
 

Of course you can have a game without a story. There are tons of games that focus solely on gameplay. However, I applaud the trend of adding both RPG and story elements to the other genres. Especially adventure games. Heck if they aren't going to have at least a minor story in an FPS they might as well cut the solo mode out altogether.

Are we better off if the stories suck?  I will agree if a GOOD story, properly told, is there, then things will likely be better.  But if the story is poor, then you have to rely on gameplay, and other reasons to play, to compel you to play.

Games are given quite a lot of latitude. Take graphics for example. There are plenty of good games out there that don't have the best graphics, even for their time. However, to reach the top of the pile a game pretty much needs both good graphics and good gameplay.

If we look at the top games in each genre we start to see some patterns. For RPGs its obvious, good gameplay, good story. For adventure and FPS games its good graphics, good gameplay. Platformers still uniquely seem to stick with gameplay.

The point is that different genres have one or two things that they _must_ have, and in some of those genres its the story. In some cases whether a story is poor or good doesn't make a lick of difference.



A warrior keeps death on the mind from the moment of their first breath to the moment of their last.



Some games need story. It depends on what type of game you want to make. If you want to tell a story through your game, you definitely need one.

Not all games are simply about "haha let's have light-hearted fun". You seem to generalize in a way that suggests that no game would need a story. As if no game were ever designed in order to tell a story. Which is an erroneous assumption. It's as if you're trying to limit the definition of games to "gameplay-centric games only", passing off everything else as something completely different, not even a game.

A good example is Shadow of the Colossus. I don't like it mainly because of its gameplay, but rather because of the entire experience. The amazing surroundings just there for you to explore, the atmosphere created by the music, art, design, and subtle story, as well as gameplay. Remove any one of these elements and the game falls, because the experience that the creators are trying to achieve wouldn't be complete. The game doesn't even have much of a story, and you can definitely neglect it, but you wouldn't get the same full-fledged experience. You get my point?



du är min getsallad

blablablabla

11 pages of this.

Game = competive activity with a set of rules to determine a winner and loser. VG can be games because Mario competers against Goombas, turtles, bowsers with a set rules to determine a winner.

All VG are games. since they all have a set of rules where players compete either against other players or AI.

There is no story in that definition.

Thus games do not need story. If people aren't touching games because of lack of story. Then it's not the game they are interested in as it is the story.

11 pages? good lord.



Squilliam: On Vgcharts its a commonly accepted practice to twist the bounds of plausibility in order to support your argument or agenda so I think its pretty cool that this gives me the precedent to say whatever I damn well please.