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Forums - General - Can God create a rock so big that he can't lift it?

Kasz216 said:
ManusJustus said:
Kasz216 said:
ManusJustus said:
Kasz216 said:

He wouldn't be ominiptoent ANYMORE.

Which is my point.  If Omnipotence lets you do everything it would stand to logic that would include giving it up.

By giving it up, you have to be unable to retrieve it.  God cant give up omnipotence if he can take it back, which is how you describe God not being able to lift a certain rock.

If I'm rich and I put all my money in the bank, I cant say that I'm poor because I still have the ability to get that money if I so desire.

If he can't "EVER" lift that rock.  Not if he can't create a rock he can't lift...

But yeah... what's your point.

It's my position that an Omnipotent god could give up Omnipotence if he really wanted to.

If he could get his powers back whenever he wanted, then he never gave up his omnipotence in the first place.

Once again... I don't see your point.  God can give up his omnipotence... that doesn't mean that if he doesn't he's not omnipotent.

If he simply creates a rock he decides he shouldn't be able to lift.  That doesn't mean he's giving up his omnipotence, unless he decides that he wants a rock he can NEVER lift.

It's a pretty simple concept.

That would mean that God could lift the rock if he wanted to.  God is still omnipotent and has not created a rock that is too heavy for him to lift.

It's a pretty simple concept.



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Actually I guess if you wanted to look at it from the Christian perspective the answer is an even easier yes, since God could easily make a rock too big for Jesus to lift



Khuutra said:
SimonSaysFYou said:
By the way, this question is retarded. God can't control human behavior so under what basis is it for him to create a rock He can't lift? It goes against physics and logic

I don't think you're really addressing the question with the proper mindframe. How does it go against physics?


it's impossible for God to create a rock heavy enough to where he can't lift it. I think people are mistaking God for a human-like sort of entity outside of space and time...probably basing that belief that God created humans in His image. God is everywhere and is all-knowing, what basis is there to create a rock large enough to test his might in terms of physical strength? The only way the statement would be true was if God DID have a limit and there was a rock the entire size of our universe, which is impossible. I don't know exactly WHAT He is, but nowhere does it say he has the physical form of a human. The only exception to that case is Jesus, who was God's SON in human form.



Are we talking about the Christian God? Did I miss something?
I thought we were talking about a general God/Creator.



SimonSaysFYou said:
Khuutra said:
SimonSaysFYou said:
By the way, this question is retarded. God can't control human behavior so under what basis is it for him to create a rock He can't lift? It goes against physics and logic

I don't think you're really addressing the question with the proper mindframe. How does it go against physics?


it's impossible for God to create a rock heavy enough to where he can't lift it. I think people are mistaking God for a human-like sort of entity outside of space and time...probably basing that belief that God created humans in His image. God is everywhere and is all-knowing, what basis is there to create a rock large enough to test his might in terms of physical strength? The only way the statement would be true was if God DID have a limit and there was a rock the entire size of our universe, which is impossible. I don't know exactly WHAT He is, but nowhere does it say he has the physical form of a human. The only exception to that case is Jesus, who was God's SON in human form.

You're missing the point. The point is omnipotence is limited by the fact that it cannot have the power to limit itself. Its a paradox.

 

@Highway. Yeah but this topic was always going to get at least slightly sidetracked onto being about Yaweh.



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highwaystar101 said:
Are we talking about the Christian God? Did I miss something?
I thought we were talking about a general God/Creator.

Well apparently we aren't since the whole "hey guys the Jewish God wasn't omnipotent in the way you're thinking" thing didn't work out

Nor did the "Omnipotence doesn't mean that you can do literally anything"

I don't know, I guess it somehow makes more sense to talk about a God that dosn't hold up under scripture or logic???



Rath said:

You're missing the point. The point is omnipotence is limited by the fact that it cannot have the power to limit itself. Its a paradox.

 

@Highway. Yeah but this topic was always going to get at least slightly sidetracked onto being about Yaweh.

The thing here is that this is only one definition of omnipotence. Aquinas said "all confess that God is omnipotent...it seems difficult to explain in what God's omnipotence precisely consists."

The thing here is that omnipotence in scholarly contexts is generally understood to have limitations, which is to say it's understood to mean "power over all", not "power capable of doing literally anything". A logically consistent portrait of God fits under the former definition of omnipotence, not the latter.



You're right in saying that the omnipotence paradox is only a paradox if you take omnipotence to literally mean power without limits.



Seriously, this is like asking can God make a cat so cute that it's a dog, or can God make a banana so yellow, it's purple. It's an impossible question.

And God would make this impossible rock, not be able to lift it, then, split himself into two Gods, lift the rock, and then merge back into one God. Then, he'd have his cake AND eat it too. Why? Because he's God.

/thread



Rath said:
Khuutra said:
Akvod said:

?

So the paradox doesn't show the logical fallacy of omnipotence? Sure you can use that to then try to define limits for your god, but again, the paradox isn't meant to disprove the existence of an god, but of an omnipotent god (or being).

The paradox isn't "meant" to do anything but show the logical problem with something. What we find as a result of the paradox anyone can use for their own benefit.

I am saying that the only useful application of this paradox is as a talking point for believers about the nature of God and his relationship with his creation. That's all there is.

And the paradox doesn't hav a specific intent of proving anything, otherise it would not be a paradox, and it is certainly not meant to disprove the possibility of omnipotence. There are many answers which preserve omnipotence, namely apaloosa's "The paradox is meaningless in the face of the fact that nothing can be greater than God" and the old standby, "God can change the rules of logic if he wants to"

Omnipotence is a big wide, yawning chasm of an idea.

The entire point of the paradox is to disprove omnipotence. And yes paradox's are meant to prove things, namely logical contradictions.

Apaloosa's one doesn't address the paradox itself and the logic one can be gotten around by adding 'under the current laws of logic' to the end of the question.

My answer attempts to demonstrate the question is a nonsensical one, much like the questions "How many hours are in a mile?", or "Why is 5 bigger than 10?".  As it's nonsense, the question poses nothing.

If God can lift any rock, then, by definition, there can be no such thing as un unliftable rock.  God cannot circumvent logic (because that means nothing), but that does not mean He couldn't be omnipotent.



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