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Forums - General - BBC: Horizon - Consciousness and free will

Slimebeast on 23 October 2009
Rath said:
Final-Fan said:
Rath said:
@ultima. He's claiming that Heisenberg's Uncertainty is in fact not uncertain. It is possible but entirely without evidence.

All the evidence right now points to a non-deterministic universe.

But as the quote I gave says, there is randomness.  Whether the specific outcomes are determined by some other thing that is actually the source of the randomness is irrelevant to the fact that the randomness exists and in the end emanates from those occurrences in quantum physics.  

Am I wrong?   

What slimebeast is saying is that it isn't random, it just appears random because we can't see what is causing it. Like how a coin flip appears random but is in fact if you look at the underlying details it is bound to end up one way from the moment it is flipped.

 

I disagree with him, but that is his what I think he is saying.

Correct.

Maybe all materia is made up of strings on the lowest level and there's 11 dimensions of spacetime, and events on that lowest level govern the behaviour of the particles on the atomic level.




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Final-Fan on 23 October 2009
Slimebeast said:
Rath said:

What slimebeast is saying is that it isn't random, it just appears random because we can't see what is causing it. Like how a coin flip appears random but is in fact if you look at the underlying details it is bound to end up one way from the moment it is flipped.

I disagree with him, but that is his what I think he is saying.

Correct.

Maybe all materia is made up of strings on the lowest level and there's 11 dimensions of spacetime, and events on that lowest level govern the behaviour of the particles on the atomic level.

What's your point?  I mean, if the randomness is coming from somewhere, what does it matter whether it's "ordinary" quantum theory or the nth dimension strings or the Flying Spaghetti Monster that is providing the apparent randomness seen in quantum particle behavior, for the purposes of this discussion?  

See my above post for details.   



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Slimebeast on 24 October 2009
Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast said:
Rath said:

What slimebeast is saying is that it isn't random, it just appears random because we can't see what is causing it. Like how a coin flip appears random but is in fact if you look at the underlying details it is bound to end up one way from the moment it is flipped.

I disagree with him, but that is his what I think he is saying.

Correct.

Maybe all materia is made up of strings on the lowest level and there's 11 dimensions of spacetime, and events on that lowest level govern the behaviour of the particles on the atomic level.

What's your point?  I mean, if the randomness is coming from somewhere, what does it matter whether it's "ordinary" quantum theory or the nth dimension strings or the Flying Spaghetti Monster that is providing the apparent randomness seen in quantum particle behavior, for the purposes of this discussion?  

See my above post for details.   

Not much perhaps. I dont remember how we got into this.



Final-Fan on 24 October 2009
Slimebeast said:
Final-Fan said:
Slimebeast said:
Rath said:

What slimebeast is saying is that it isn't random, it just appears random because we can't see what is causing it. Like how a coin flip appears random but is in fact if you look at the underlying details it is bound to end up one way from the moment it is flipped.

I disagree with him, but that is his what I think he is saying.

Correct.

Maybe all materia is made up of strings on the lowest level and there's 11 dimensions of spacetime, and events on that lowest level govern the behaviour of the particles on the atomic level.

What's your point?  I mean, if the randomness is coming from somewhere, what does it matter whether it's "ordinary" quantum theory or the nth dimension strings or the Flying Spaghetti Monster that is providing the apparent randomness seen in quantum particle behavior, for the purposes of this discussion?  

See my above post for details.   

Not much perhaps. I dont remember how we got into this.

You said:  "I don't believe in the concept of randomness. Is there anything in our world that has been proven to behave randomly?

"In quantum physics I believe the obsrved particles acting what looks to be randomly (or particle reactions that seem to have certain % chances to have different outcomes) is actually caused by unknown factors."

I took that to mean that you thought everything was deterministic, and randomness was only seeming randomness due to unknown factors.  

So if quantum physics is known to have true randomness (proven per your question), it doesn't matter where exactly that randomness originated for that to be incorrect.  

I believe this was in relation to CrazyHorse's assertion that even if we lack free will our choices aren't necessarily predetermined (random element can leave possibilities open).  



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
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My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
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I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

Rath on 24 October 2009
Slimebeast said:
Rath said:
Final-Fan said:
Rath said:
@ultima. He's claiming that Heisenberg's Uncertainty is in fact not uncertain. It is possible but entirely without evidence.

All the evidence right now points to a non-deterministic universe.

But as the quote I gave says, there is randomness.  Whether the specific outcomes are determined by some other thing that is actually the source of the randomness is irrelevant to the fact that the randomness exists and in the end emanates from those occurrences in quantum physics.  

Am I wrong?   

What slimebeast is saying is that it isn't random, it just appears random because we can't see what is causing it. Like how a coin flip appears random but is in fact if you look at the underlying details it is bound to end up one way from the moment it is flipped.

 

I disagree with him, but that is his what I think he is saying.

Correct.

Maybe all materia is made up of strings on the lowest level and there's 11 dimensions of spacetime, and events on that lowest level govern the behaviour of the particles on the atomic level.

I didn't think any of the major models of string theory had variables governing quantum behaviour?



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Final-Fan on 24 October 2009
Rath said:
Slimebeast said:
Maybe all materia is made up of strings on the lowest level and there's 11 dimensions of spacetime, and events on that lowest level govern the behaviour of the particles on the atomic level.

I didn't think any of the major models of string theory had variables governing quantum behaviour?

We have bigger problems than that -- this is the FF7 theory of the universe.  



Tag (courtesy of fkusumot): "Please feel free -- nay, I encourage you -- to offer rebuttal."
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
My advice to fanboys: Brag about stuff that's true, not about stuff that's false. Predict stuff that's likely, not stuff that's unlikely. You will be happier, and we will be happier.

"Everyone is entitled to his own opinion, but not his own facts." - Sen. Pat Moynihan
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The old smileys: ; - ) : - ) : - ( : - P : - D : - # ( c ) ( k ) ( y ) If anyone knows the shortcut for , let me know!
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
I have the most epic death scene ever in VGChartz Mafia.  Thanks WordsofWisdom! 

WessleWoggle on 24 October 2009

This stuff is boring.



Slimebeast on 24 October 2009
Rath said:
Slimebeast said:
Rath said:
Final-Fan said:
Rath said:
@ultima. He's claiming that Heisenberg's Uncertainty is in fact not uncertain. It is possible but entirely without evidence.

All the evidence right now points to a non-deterministic universe.

But as the quote I gave says, there is randomness.  Whether the specific outcomes are determined by some other thing that is actually the source of the randomness is irrelevant to the fact that the randomness exists and in the end emanates from those occurrences in quantum physics.  

Am I wrong?   

What slimebeast is saying is that it isn't random, it just appears random because we can't see what is causing it. Like how a coin flip appears random but is in fact if you look at the underlying details it is bound to end up one way from the moment it is flipped.

 

I disagree with him, but that is his what I think he is saying.

Correct.

Maybe all materia is made up of strings on the lowest level and there's 11 dimensions of spacetime, and events on that lowest level govern the behaviour of the particles on the atomic level.

I didn't think any of the major models of string theory had variables governing quantum behaviour?

Well, I don't know the exact definition of quantum behaviour. Maybe it's by definition the most fundamental level of particles/physics?

Im just thinking these photons and stuff behaving probabilstically could be explained by string vibrations and their positions in several dimensions.

 



Rath on 24 October 2009

Why do you believe that though? As far as I know there is no evidence for it at all, no theory calls for it and it has never been observed.

It's a bit like Russels Teapot - we can't prove that there isn't a teapot orbiting the sun, we just assume there isn't because there is no evidence that there is.



Slimebeast on 24 October 2009
Rath said:
Why do you believe that though? As far as I know there is no evidence for it at all, no theory calls for it and it has never been observed.

It's a bit like Russels Teapot - we can't prove that there isn't a teapot orbiting the sun, we just assume there isn't because there is no evidence that there is.

There must be many theories that are deterministic. Theories that try to explain the probabilistic behaviour of quantum phenomenons. I don't know the names but there's many.

As I said, I beleive it because I don't believe in the concept of randomness.