This is my first thread/post on VGChartz, after being a reader for several months, and i'd like to say a few things before i get properly on topic.

I'm aware the VGC forums have a huge problem over console-war arguements, over which console has better games, technology, and which will sell better, so to be part of the solution, I'm going to avoid as much console-bias as possible in this thread, despite supporting one console dev far more than the others. Which company I support is for personal reasons that i think are important to games, it's not some important part of my being to be made present whenever i voice my opinion on something, and it's not a banner to wave in hate at those who do not agree.

And i'd secondly like to say thank you for reading, now time for the damn topic.

Like probably many people here, I have been playing video games for most of my life, and because of the young age i started playing, one of the many things i didn't notice about games for a long time was their ability, and some what rare occurance to be a fantastic art form, and theres many games i'd compare to great writings, paintings, musical works, and films, such as Shadow of the Colossus, Half Life 2, Psychonauts, and some obscure adventure games I won't bother to mention here.

The best experience I've ever had with games are games that push the boundaries of fiction, atmosphere, gameplay, strategy, and imagination, and when I started to look for these traits in games I noticed I was enjoying games far more than I had before, because these games were always far more interesting to play. It became obvious to me, that sadly, most games are either just plain bad, or not that great in the sense that they're not particularly notable, for a long time this never bothered me, why complain about what I didn't encounter?

But more and more recently I've become upset with the gaming industry in its pratices, and how most people will just go along with it. Game Publishers are turning into Record Labels, in that they will refuse, ignore, and fear games that are ground breaking, original, and take risks, because they fear it'll flop, so instead they go for guaranteed and already existing market places, such as war-time FPS, fantasy MMORPG, and sports games.

The effort put into these games also worries me, many consisting of characters as flat and non-existant as possible, and with atmospheres as bland as you can get without making everything grey and monotoned. A game doesn't have to be mentally challenged or beautifully written for me to like, I liked Serious Sam because it created a fun exaggerated atmosphere, it realized that FPSs can be more fun if they dump realism and bland-plots for silly exaggerated monster-hoard killing, and it worked.

Many would say minimal effort of production and selective-marketing are part of business and making money, but games are an ART, so it should be irrelevant.

But what angers me the most is most of the games that will ever be popular are like this. This will be the only Pro or Anti any console part of this post: I am not happy with what Nintendo has done with the Wii, its become a breeding ground for the most minimal effort, sub-par, unimaginative, boring, and un-involving crap i've ever seen, so far most games that people have reccomended i should play when I say this are games that annoy me because they're just franchise binges, like SSBB, TLoZTW, Super Mario, I bought all of these, and I was happy with Super Mario Galaxy, just. And since I've decided to not buy any game that nintendo makes thats just a rehash of what i already have. But of course its still the most (commercially) successful console this gen.

And I'm starting to get worried that with the increasing market of gamers who are "Just in it to kill time" or "Just want to play something." because sooner or later 99% of the gaming industry won't take risks or spend that extra money to fund that game buffing off some issues, because you can sell "Just good enough" games. It'll turn into hollywood, where the only reason anything is done is for the money.

And I don't want that to happen, Because I love games, they've played a huge part in my life, I want them to keep moving forward, not staying the same. I want new break throughs and new goddamn ideas. And surely by being here, you must love games, you must want them to be good, and yet so many people here will go out and buy "Shooting Things: The Un-needed, Un-impressive Sequel" and "Generic Fantasy Land 12", but will never play Psychonauts or  The Secret of Monkey Island.

So I wanted to ask some other gamers, what do you think? Do you think sooner or later the game industry won't have the time or money for art? Do you completely disagree? In which case I'd love to hear your opinion. What'd also be great, reccomend some games that you think are/will be great art, those things need more exposure. And what do you consider when you buy a game? The Designer? The Company? The franchise? The Publisher?

Hopefully theres not too many typos etc. :)

Of course popularity and commerce will harm the artistic elements. Look at Hollywood example and the huge focus on films for 'mindless Friday night popcorn entertainment' vs films for stimulation of the mind and the senses.

But that's okay. That's just the way it is. The market for more artistic, risky titles will be there - as every it will just need to find the right way to market.

Look at The Last Guardian - the very fact a title like that exists comforts me there will be room for Art as well as commerce.

Also, just like the film industry, sooner or later there's the slump when the well is dry for the latest franchise entry or use of a familiar setting, sales disappoint, and new material is given a chance to flourish.

In the end there probably are more people looking for simple entertainment vs something more challenging, and so long as they and those of us looking for a something a little bit deeper both get enough material then things are fine. I'd hate to deny a lot of people their fun.

Yes, TLG looks like it'll be a great game, but I don't believe games are becoming less artistic now, I'm afraid they will further down the line.

And I guess you're right, the accomadation of all groups is important.

It's a bit of a tangent, but I just read this and it aligns somewhat with your points:

http://www.crispygamer.com/features/2009-09-23/the-60buck-dilemma.aspx

I do feel that there are some connections between videogame/film industry around entertainment vs Art and the need to generate a certain return to cover expensive efforts to replicate another successful piece of entertainment.

Its an endless cycle really. Those that fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. However, we still see games that push those boundaries. Don't fret

I came to this thread thinking it was one of Rols. Either we have a new challenger, or someone was serious.

Anyway, first i'd like to point out, that Nintendo seems to be the least of the problem of rehashing content by looking at what the other big publishers are putting out.

Wii was designed so that new content could be created, instead of rehashing content with the blockbuster businessmodel. And when you take a look, you may notice that Nintendo have put out lots of new content on Wii. Whether they are the games you like, is rather irrelevant, since it's new content anyway.
In fact, the whole success of Wii is based on the new content it brought.

For the art, if you look at history, every piece of art that is seen great, have been commercially successful. For example i myself largely dislike Picasso, but due to circumstances at his time, he was forced to have different businessmodel than the other artists, which made Picasso popular fast.

However, you seemed to present art as something else than it is, art, in itself, is the creative asset put into the product. And what's destroying the art in the games, is the rising cost of development, that effectively destroys the experimental creative aspect of the game, for the sake of high profit. Not the platform that offer you the best potential to make art.

Also, the art of videogames is very different from other forms of entertainment. For example, a movie you could call art, would be a slideshow of famous painting playing Sibelius on the background for two hours.

Well I think your argument is slightly flawed. The 'art' games you listed were all quite recent, when gaming was very popular, and I think the most 'arty' games this generation have released on the wii, like okami (allright that was first on the PS2), madworld and no more heroes. This is because as gaming expands the market for these games expands as well. Back in the 80's and 90's games certainly weren't 'art' by your definition, yet a lot of gamers cite this as their favourite gaming period, despite story taking a backdrop to pure gameplay.

I do agree that there are to many sequels, but that has always been the case, not just when gaming is as popular as it is now.

@Reasonable: What's dertroying Hollywood is the pursue for art. Popcorn movies like Star Wars or Jaws were very entertaining, which is what the primary purpose of the movies are.
What you called popcorn movies are so fucked up these days because they try to be art in themselves.

Art is an extremely vague term to speak about. Usually when someone is trying to describe the word "art" or uses it in some kind of a context thereby shows his purely subjective cultural experience or lack thereof. Well, let's say... Duchamp's Fountain perfectly demonstrates that anything artist wants could be considered as an art. Framed horse rump on the wall, maybe? Why not? I'm having problems distinguishing "art" from "non-art", thus I'd say practically anything in human culture that could possibly be considered as an art is in fact a piece of art. In other words, if artist creates - it's and art, period. So, yes, the most blatant game out there is a piece of art as long as it's a part of human culture, like it or not.

Though public perception of games as an art form is under question. You mentioned Hollywood once in your topic, making it like a bad path for gaming industy to follow. I'm not sure of that. Film industry != Hollywood, but the latter to some extent made a valuable contribution to the whole industry by moving it to mainstream public, widely accepted phenomena. In finale it's not only a successful business, but a good way for ambitious artists to express yourself. I highly doubt that gaming industry, though very close to overcome film industry by total revenue per year (if not already), will ever achieve this level of public acceptance. Nowadays it's too concentrated on very active sales-wise but age and gender specific public.

I understand and agree with what you said.

Developers playing it save and fearing there game will flop is understandable, with the rise to dev costs

in recent years a company can be ruined with the sales of one game (Free Redical comes to mind).

But like "Reasonable" said there will always be room for ART as well, with games like TLG and Heavy Rain.

I just hope there are rewarded for there efforts.