By using this site, you agree to our Privacy Policy and our Terms of Use. Close

Forums - General - The fight over Darwin - Teaching evolution in schools

appolose said:
Khuutra said:
appolose said:
Final-Fan said:
It is impossible to "observe" that something cannot happen in the same sense of the word that you observe an apple falling.

Agree or disagree, appolose, please.

Disagree.  I've brought up the first law of thermodynamics multiple times now, which is not at all unlike what I'm proposing.

And we're done here.

Final-Fan, can this end now?

If it's possible to observe that the answer is not physical, how are we done, exactly?

It's not possible to observe that the answer is not physical. You cannot observe the absence of something, only your inability to detect it. Or, rather, it's not possible to observe what something is not, because you cannot perform some kind of negative observation. It is impossible to eliminate the natural or the physical.

That's why we're done. We've come to the impasse, the one great misunderstanding which you do not seem to want to get around. So we're done. There's nothing else to say, and anything past this point would just be repeating points already elaborated on.



Around the Network
Khuutra said:
appolose said:
Khuutra said:
appolose said:
Final-Fan said:
It is impossible to "observe" that something cannot happen in the same sense of the word that you observe an apple falling.

Agree or disagree, appolose, please.

Disagree.  I've brought up the first law of thermodynamics multiple times now, which is not at all unlike what I'm proposing.

And we're done here.

Final-Fan, can this end now?

If it's possible to observe that the answer is not physical, how are we done, exactly?

It's not possible to observe that the answer is not physical. You cannot observe the absence of something, only your inability to detect it. Or, rather, it's not possible to observe what something is not, because you cannot perform some kind of negative observation. It is impossible to eliminate the natural or the physical.

That's why we're done. We've come to the impasse, the one great misunderstanding which you do not seem to want to get around. So we're done. There's nothing else to say, and anything past this point would just be repeating points already elaborated on.

...

"Energy cannot be created or destroyed"

That is the first law of thermodynamics. 



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
appolose said:
Khuutra said:
appolose said:
Khuutra said:

And we're done here.

Final-Fan, can this end now?

If it's possible to observe that the answer is not physical, how are we done, exactly?

It's not possible to observe that the answer is not physical. You cannot observe the absence of something, only your inability to detect it. Or, rather, it's not possible to observe what something is not, because you cannot perform some kind of negative observation. It is impossible to eliminate the natural or the physical.

That's why we're done. We've come to the impasse, the one great misunderstanding which you do not seem to want to get around. So we're done. There's nothing else to say, and anything past this point would just be repeating points already elaborated on.

...

"Energy cannot be created or destroyed"

That is the first law of thermodynamics. 

The first law is actually

The increase in the internal energy of a system is equal to the amount of energy added by heating the system, minus the amount lost as a result of the work done by the system on its surroundings
Which is of course to say that according to our observations, energy that goes in = energy that comes out. It's not phrased negatively because you can't make a negative observation.

More, this is just in keeping with observations up to this point. If something popped up that violated thermodynamics (violated entropy) then it would be out the window, good-bye, so long.

It is not possible to eliminate the natural or the physical, only to change one's suppositions. If you have "eliminated every possible physical cause", then no, actually, you haven't, and you are a bad scientist if you lack the imagination sufficient to say as much.

You cannot eliminate all physical causes, not even hypothetically. It violates logic. You don't see how it violates logic, that's ifne, I don't hold it against you, but it also means that continuing the conversation has become pointless.



appolose said:
 

...

"Energy cannot be created or destroyed"

That is the first law of thermodynamics. 

Argh! Whats the freaking point of posting that? We've already talked about it.

If that was broken then most of physics would have to be heavily adapted, it would not mean the supernatural. A law is only the repeated observation of a phonomena, a contrary observation (most likely subject to repeatability) falsifies a scientific law.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

 

Read that, that is something any scientific theory or law needs to hold to. Any supernatural explanation does not submit to falsifiability.



*Reads thread*

*Slips into a coma*

Are you guys even talking about evolution anymore?



 

 

Around the Network
MontanaHatchet said:
*Reads thread*

*Slips into a coma*

Are you guys even talking about evolution anymore?

What the Hell is evolution!?



Khuutra said:
appolose said:

...

"Energy cannot be created or destroyed"

That is the first law of thermodynamics. 

The first law is actually

The increase in the internal energy of a system is equal to the amount of energy added by heating the system, minus the amount lost as a result of the work done by the system on its surroundings
Which is of course to say that according to our observations, energy that goes in = energy that comes out. It's not phrased negatively because you can't make a negative observation.

More, this is just in keeping with observations up to this point. If something popped up that violated thermodynamics (violated entropy) then it would be out the window, good-bye, so long.

It is not possible to eliminate the natural or the physical, only to change one's suppositions. If you have "eliminated every possible physical cause", then no, actually, you haven't, and you are a bad scientist if you lack the imagination sufficient to say as much.

You cannot eliminate all physical causes, not even hypothetically. It violates logic. You don't see how it violates logic, that's ifne, I don't hold it against you, but it also means that continuing the conversation has become pointless.

The "negative version" of that is exactly the same thing; of course you can say it.

And why do you keep bringing up things contradictory observations?  My scenario does not consist of those, as I have said countless times now.

If you mean eliminate as in deductively eliminate, then, of course, you're right.  Likewise, you can never deductively prove anything either, so I'm not sure what your point is.  Science is an inductive process.

In my scenario, if you induced non-physicality, then you've induced supernaturality.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
appolose said:

The "negative version" of that is exactly the same thing; of course you can say it.

And why do you keep bringing up things contradictory observations?  My scenario does not consist of those, as I have said countless times now.

If you mean eliminate as in deductively eliminate, then, of course, you're right.  Likewise, you can never deductively prove anything either, so I'm not sure what your point is.  Science is an inductive process.

In my scenario, if you induced non-physicality, then you've induced supernaturality.

You can't do that either.



Rath said:
appolose said:
 

...

"Energy cannot be created or destroyed"

That is the first law of thermodynamics. 

Argh! Whats the freaking point of posting that? We've already talked about it.

If that was broken then most of physics would have to be heavily adapted, it would not mean the supernatural. A law is only the repeated observation of a phonomena, a contrary observation (most likely subject to repeatability) falsifies a scientific law.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability

 

Read that, that is something any scientific theory or law needs to hold to. Any supernatural explanation does not submit to falsifiability.

To demonstrate that science has, at one point, made a "negative" observation.

"A law is only the repeated observation of a phonomena, a contrary observation (most likely subject to repeatability) falsifies a scientific law".

Why do you keep bringing this up? My example does not have a contrary observation.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz
Khuutra said:
appolose said:

The "negative version" of that is exactly the same thing; of course you can say it.

And why do you keep bringing up things contradictory observations?  My scenario does not consist of those, as I have said countless times now.

If you mean eliminate as in deductively eliminate, then, of course, you're right.  Likewise, you can never deductively prove anything either, so I'm not sure what your point is.  Science is an inductive process.

In my scenario, if you induced non-physicality, then you've induced supernaturality.

You can't do that either.

Here's an example of induction;

"All geese I've ever seen are white.  I assume, then, that all geese are white"

And another;

"All geese I've ever seen are not blue.  I asssume, then, that no goose is blue"

Neither follow, and both are what science do.



Okami

To lavish praise upon this title, the assumption of a common plateau between player and game must be made.  I won't open my unworthy mouth.

Christian (+50).  Arminian(+20). AG adherent(+20). YEC(+20). Pre-tribulation Pre-milleniumist (+10).  Republican (+15) Capitalist (+15).  Pro-Nintendo (+5).  Misc. stances (+30).  TOTAL SCORE: 195
  http://quizfarm.com/test.php?q_id=43870 <---- Fun theology quiz