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Forums - Nintendo - Pokemon: What's wrong and what it needs

Words Of Wisdom said:
Gnizmo said:
Words Of Wisdom said:
Gnizmo said:

I do have a few things to say about the misconception of legendaries though. For the most part they are not actually all that much better than the normal ones. Yes you have a good bit that are broken, but those are still relatively low compared to the total number of pokemon. I do agree they seem to be adding them at an obscene rate, but the truly broken ones aren't all that bad. 

Actually, they are.  If you ever check out the competitive scene for pokemon, you'll find that legends and pseudo-legends dominate the uber tier of pokemon battles.  That's not just a coincidence.  Their base stats and abilities often make them far more brutal than other pokemon and thanks to Platinum's move tutors allowing just about any pokemon to learn some devastating attacks... legends have become even stronger.

You have pokemon like Giratina (both forms), Arceus, Shaymin Skye Forme, Dark Rai, Palkia, and Dialga which are all broken admittedly. But you also have pokemon like the varios trios (Zapdos, Uxie, Raikou et al), Shaymin, Crecellia, Heatran, and every single pseudo legendary outside of Garchomp. Yes the legendaries dominate the uber tier, but there are a lot of legendaries that fall outside of that. Hell Articuno is seen as completely unusable in competitive play, and it has the same 580 (600?) stat total a lot of legendaries have. I never claimed all legendaries are balanced, but to pretend they are all broken is equally absurd. The pseudo legendaries are not broken for 90% of the cases.

Not much else to expect from a bird that can be OHKO'd by Stone Edge and has barely any type coverage.

Really though, what are you arguing here?  You admit that legendaries dominate the uber tier which was my point (as well as part of the OU tier) and then turn around to say that "to pretend they are all broken is equally absurd" which is something I never did.  I'm not really quite sure what your point is.


My point is exactly what I originally posted. Calling all legendaries broken is non-sense, and they do not come close to dominating the tournament scene. Did you miss that part of the OP?

The real question is what was your point? Other than pointing out something I had mentioned in my post, and making factually incorrect additions like pseudo legendaries being prevealent in the Uber Tier (For the peanut gallery: There are as many baby Pokemon as pseudo legendaries in the Uber tier). They float up to the OU tier commonly, but still make up a minority in it. Yes they are good, but no they don't really have a huge impact on the tournament scene.

And I really don't expect much more from Articuno. The only one of any legendary trio to consistently place in the OU tier is Zapdos, and that is because it has a really good type combination, and a good stat distribution. It just easily supports my argument and was the first one I checked on. I wouldn't be surprised to find Moltres or a few others down there as well.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

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Gnizmo said:

My point is exactly what I originally posted. Calling all legendaries broken is non-sense, and they do not come close to dominating the tournament scene. Did you miss that part of the OP?

The real question is what was your point? Other than pointing out something I had mentioned in my post, and making factually incorrect additions like pseudo legendaries being prevealent in the Uber Tier (For the peanut gallery: There are as many baby Pokemon as pseudo legendaries in the Uber tier). They float up to the OU tier commonly, but still make up a minority in it. Yes they are good, but no they don't really have a huge impact on the tournament scene.

And I really don't expect much more from Articuno. The only one of any legendary trio to consistently place in the OU tier is Zapdos, and that is because it has a really good type combination, and a good stat distribution. It just easily supports my argument and was the first one I checked on. I wouldn't be surprised to find Moltres or a few others down there as well.

Yeah, I did miss that point in the OP.  Is it somewhere else besides number 5?  All that point is about is saying there are too many.

My point is what the first post was.  Legendary pokemon dominate the Uber tier.  That pretty much nulls your statement of "For the most part they are not actually all that much better than the normal ones."  That is to say, you lied.  You can't have just about every pokemon in the highest power tier of the game be a legendary and then say they're not all that much better than normal ones.

I agree with Articuno and Moltres being lower though.  It's the X4 to rock that totally kills them because it means that they take 50% of their HP in damage from Stealth Rock which is one of the first setups you'll have to deal with.  Toss in Stone Edge which gets around quite a bit into the mix as well as weakness to other common types like Water and Electric and they're pretty much done.  Ho-oh is in a similar situation to Moltres but it's boasting base stats of 680 total (same as Mewtwo) whereas Moltres is running 580.  The disparity in power between the two is shocking, but that's why Ho-oh is stays high tier and Moltres doesn't.

Most of uber isn't held by legendary trios though, it's held by the individual legends like Deoxys, Mewtwo, Mew, Arceus, etc.  There are a few trio members that come close to that level (Suicune is the biggest IMO), but not many make it all the way up there.  Garchomp manages but that's because it's a beast.  A couple weeks back I swept a friend's entire team with a dancing Garchomp.



" Young kids love legendary Pokemon becuase they are cool and really powerful (a.k.a. easy). In fact, this is why the World Tournement is allowing Legendaries. It is becuase most of their users are now younger kids (worse then with R/B) and they know damn well of that. "

It is mostly an implication, but its there. Most importantly almost all the legendaries are banned from the world tournament either directly or indirectly via the level cap.

For the most part legendaries are not broken though. Uber tier being dominated by legendaries != legendaries are mostly broken. There are 23 banned pokemon including 2 forms of Giratina, and 4 forms of Deoxys. Removing the formes (save Sky Forme Shaymin) and non legendaries you have 16 banned legendaries. There are ~35 legendaries in game. I say again, most legendaries are not broken.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

Gnizmo said:
" Young kids love legendary Pokemon becuase they are cool and really powerful (a.k.a. easy). In fact, this is why the World Tournement is allowing Legendaries. It is becuase most of their users are now younger kids (worse then with R/B) and they know damn well of that. "

It is mostly an implication, but its there. Most importantly almost all the legendaries are banned from the world tournament either directly or indirectly via the level cap.

For the most part legendaries are not broken though. Uber tier being dominated by legendaries != legendaries are mostly broken. There are 23 banned pokemon including 2 forms of Giratina, and 4 forms of Deoxys. Removing the formes (save Sky Forme Shaymin) and non legendaries you have 16 banned legendaries. There are ~35 legendaries in game. I say again, most legendaries are not broken.

I still don't understand.

I didn't use the word broken.  The OP didn't use the word broken.  You are the only person in this entire thread to even use that word.  Who exactly are you arguing against?

Also, broken to me was the Deoxys I faced the other week that had the Wonder Guard ability.

 



Words Of Wisdom said:

I still don't understand.

I didn't use the word broken.  The OP didn't use the word broken.  You are the only person in this entire thread to even use that word.  Who exactly are you arguing against?

Also, broken to me was the Deoxys I faced the other week that had the Wonder Guard ability.

 

Cheaters do anything they can to win. It is predictable if annoying. It is one of the better reasons to round out the online experience for Pokemon a bit better. Having no true counters would be the simplest definition of broken/over powered in my view. At least as it applies to pokemon. It is not a broad enough definition admittedly, but it works when you weed out the clearly superior ones, and then see how the dust settles.

I use the term broken because of how I view the world. Things are either balanced, or not. If not they are broken for better or worse. In this case I use it to mean significantly better than other pokemon. The majority of legendaries are found in OU or lower. This is the same as with all pokemon. As such, most legendaries are balanced. The minority are much more powerful than non-legendary pokemon. DPPt was particularly bad about introducing unbalanced pokemon though.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

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Gnizmo said:
Words Of Wisdom said:
 

I still don't understand.

I didn't use the word broken.  The OP didn't use the word broken.  You are the only person in this entire thread to even use that word.  Who exactly are you arguing against?

Also, broken to me was the Deoxys I faced the other week that had the Wonder Guard ability.

 

Cheaters do anything they can to win. It is predictable if annoying. It is one of the better reasons to round out the online experience for Pokemon a bit better. Having no true counters would be the simplest definition of broken/over powered in my view. At least as it applies to pokemon. It is not a broad enough definition admittedly, but it works when you weed out the clearly superior ones, and then see how the dust settles.

I use the term broken because of how I view the world. Things are either balanced, or not. If not they are broken for better or worse. In this case I use it to mean significantly better than other pokemon. The majority of legendaries are found in OU or lower. This is the same as with all pokemon. As such, most legendaries are balanced. The minority are much more powerful than non-legendary pokemon. DPPt was particularly bad about introducing unbalanced pokemon though.

I have fewer problems with the overpowered pokemon than the underpowered ones.  There are 20-25ish pokemon in the uber tier but there's a mountain of them in the NU tier.  Just once I'd like to have a Butterfree, Arbok, or Ditto on my team and have it be awesome.



Words Of Wisdom said:
Gnizmo said:
Words Of Wisdom said:
 

I still don't understand.

I didn't use the word broken.  The OP didn't use the word broken.  You are the only person in this entire thread to even use that word.  Who exactly are you arguing against?

Also, broken to me was the Deoxys I faced the other week that had the Wonder Guard ability.

 

Cheaters do anything they can to win. It is predictable if annoying. It is one of the better reasons to round out the online experience for Pokemon a bit better. Having no true counters would be the simplest definition of broken/over powered in my view. At least as it applies to pokemon. It is not a broad enough definition admittedly, but it works when you weed out the clearly superior ones, and then see how the dust settles.

I use the term broken because of how I view the world. Things are either balanced, or not. If not they are broken for better or worse. In this case I use it to mean significantly better than other pokemon. The majority of legendaries are found in OU or lower. This is the same as with all pokemon. As such, most legendaries are balanced. The minority are much more powerful than non-legendary pokemon. DPPt was particularly bad about introducing unbalanced pokemon though.

I have fewer problems with the overpowered pokemon than the underpowered ones.  There are 20-25ish pokemon in the uber tier but there's a mountain of them in the NU tier.  Just once I'd like to have a Butterfree, Arbok, or Ditto on my team and have it be awesome.

You could.. dare I say.. limit yourself to battling in the UU/NU environments.  Beside they're more fun for the surprise factor.  Making a team to counter twice as many Pokemon as the OU environment is rewarding.



Pixel Art can be fun.

Words Of Wisdom said:

I have fewer problems with the overpowered pokemon than the underpowered ones.  There are 20-25ish pokemon in the uber tier but there's a mountain of them in the NU tier.  Just once I'd like to have a Butterfree, Arbok, or Ditto on my team and have it be awesome.

Yeah it really bothers me as well honestly. There are more pokemon in NU than in the other 4 tiers combined. There has to be a way to get a lot of them to be somewhat less worthless.



Starcraft 2 ID: Gnizmo 229

Finally finished the OP. I added two new points. It is done.



SmokedHostage said:

You could.. dare I say.. limit yourself to battling in the UU/NU environments.  Beside they're more fun for the surprise factor.  Making a team to counter twice as many Pokemon as the OU environment is rewarding.

I prefer fixing problems as opposed to avoiding them.

Also, you're not actually making counters at that point.  You're just striving for maximum type coverage.