There are no outside observers though. All humans (you know, the things that have to exist for morals to exist, since we define them) think murder is right. While we are instinctly built not to kill each other at random this has nothing to do with right and wrong, but is important for the continued survival of the species. If we killed each other at random, we would not exist for very long, but that in itself isn't wrong either.

I suppose the best example without a majority is this: Lets say you consider murder wrong, and I consider murder right. Neither one of us is incorrect in our moral beliefs, because thats exactly what morals are, believe in the rights and wrongs of actions. Now we might decided between ourselves that not killing each other is a benifit to both of us (so law is created), but that doesn't change either of our moral standings, nor how correct/incorrect our moral standings are.

And no, moral issues aren't just up to a majority vote (though society is definitely a major factor). Your original comment was along the lines of "piracy = stealing, because calling stealing shows how immoral it is". I'm suggesting that piracy isn't as immoral (or perhaps it is even moral) as what is associated with the word stealing, to the general public/society, because in my experience, most people pirate significantly more than they steal (whether it be a service or tangible object), thus using the word steal is still inappropriate (both in definition and morallity).

Standard invalid bleating from a common thief who wants to feel as though he isn't scum. There is nothing worthy of respect in this article, nor in the viewpoint that spawned it. Software pirates are thieves, and the connection is obvious to anyone who hasn't deluded themselves into thinking they're somehow entitled to steal games.

Ahh, the good ol' "If you think piracy isn't stealing, then you must think its piracy is good" stance. Quick question. If piracy is stealing, then is making a back up copy of a game also stealing? In my country, making a back up copy of a game I have purchased is copyright infringement, so what have I stolen to call this stealing? Also here, up until 2006, copying music from a CD to an MP3 player was also copyright infringement (even though MP3 players had been on sale for over half a decade). Were all those people also stealing?

Very few people who argue that piracy is not stealing think piracy is ok, just that the term stealing is incorrect.

Will save this for later... Go Pirates!

This piracy war thread stuff is getting annoying though...

Ok so we are in a crisis right now. It's the so called house bubble. Banks were giving loans to people they could never afford. That's destroying peoples lives, those people just want a house, they don't want to live on the streets. Many people that live by the rules and dont have great jobs. Well what they do is eat, sleep, work, talk and that's it. Happy life you got there. Life is so expensive already, I believe digital entertainment makes people happy and escape from reality.

However things turning in to our favor, we already have Netflix (pay on TV) and Hulu (ads on PC). I think the entertainment industry is slowly shifting to wards this. Already 10 million subscribers for Netflix and Hulu... well this is interesting. 42 million or 10 million What's going on here? Is there any American who bothers with piracy? Atleast for Movies. If these movies services were also allowed in other countrys let's say Cannada it would reduce would piracy by 30%. Compared to US.

Hulu traffic
http://searchengineland.com/hulu-traffic-controversy-pits-comscore-vs-nielsen-19336

Piracy per country
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_sof_pir_rat-crime-software-piracy-rate

Piracy isn't against developers, musicians, producers or publishers. It's against the monetary system itself. The creators want people to love/like their creation rather then driving a big car. Humans don't want money, yet our world relies too much on money. This is why everthing is so ridiculisly expensive. Most people have to look outside their country, if they think everything is affordable.

Our goverments are really playing with us because we don't bother enough (we are to greedy as a species). I also think they are a little bit affraid to make piracy "a theft" and people are forced to pay a fine. Even if it's "only the amount of the retail prices". Every citizen o well all most every citizen in the world would be in debt.

Sooner or later we will probably get what we want, just slowed down by regulation, lobbyists etc. That's only because we are slowly considering that we are paying to much...

There is an outside obsverver if you believe in absolut or universal morals. Imagine there's a God or aliens in outer space. What treatment would we expect from highly advanced aliens if they came here? etc

And the evolutionary argument has it's weaknesses (behavioural codes and rules through instincts "is important for the continued survival of the species"). How do you explain the idea that's speading all over the world that everyone is equal? And the future extension to rights for animals that we will definately see in the coming century or two.

I think this is too off-topic now though.

Well, that depends on how you define theft/stealing. Words can have broad definitions. The key word here if we are gonna pick something from the moral realm of terminology would be theft/stealing in my opinion. Or you know of a better synonym?

How about a summary for this?

I'll stop arguing on morals because I think we are just going to have to agree to disagree (as someone with a major in philosophy, I left uni with many unresolved arguments ).

The better synonym I would use is Copyright Infringement. If we look up a definition of piracy, we get "the unauthorized reproduction or use of a copyrighted book, recording, television program, patented invention, trademarked product, etc.". As I commented to Millennium, unauthorised reproduction is more than just "taking something that doesn't belong to you". Unauthorised backups and transcoding can also be piracy (I believe these are ok in the US, but they aren't here in Australia), yet I think most people would have a hard time arguing that making a copy for personal use, of something you have already paid to obtain, is still the same as stealling. Ignoring the definitions and looking in the moral realm, do you think that making a backup copy is as wrong as making a copy of something you don't own at all?

I agree that words can have broad definitions, but I don't think that the defintions of piracy and stealing overlap enough to make them synonymous.

"copyright infringment" is not a lay-mans term. Pretend you are going to describe piracy to an immigrant from the third world. He wouldn't understand if you say 'copying games is wrong because it's copyright infringment'. I prefer 'copying games is wrong because its a form of theft'.

I didn't mean exactly a synonym, but something in the same ball-park (sorry, my English is rotten).