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Forums - Sales - Piracy not theft because its a copy..

.jayderyu on 12 August 2009

wow, 24 pages of corporate PR psyche training vs some legal understanding.

These threads are a waste of time. They never go anywhere and one side is all about spouting corporate words rather than expanding to a higher level of legal or legal philosophy understanding. There is far more too the simplicity of piracy than the non legal acquirement of the software. There economy impact, social, corporate, government. Many points have it's good and bad points.

FayeC does have a point. Yes Person P downloaded game X. This immediate effect is that the developer doesn't see any money from it(BTW nor dose buying used). The money "saved" will get spent elsewhere, but still spent. The biggest loss is that the P didn't contribute to the company. That's it.

Anyways I'm don't on this topic. It's pointless arguing. Above comments are a waste of time :P
guess I have time to waste.



Squilliam: On Vgcharts its a commonly accepted practice to twist the bounds of plausibility in order to support your argument or agenda so I think its pretty cool that this gives me the precedent to say whatever I damn well please.

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Kasz216 on 12 August 2009
superchunk said:
FayeC said:
superchunk said:
FayeC said:
Its not theft because that content is not being taken, its being copied. Now its being copied "without permission or consent" so that does indeed make it copyright infringement, just not theft.

You can't even consider it theft of a potential sale. If I steal a game off of a shelf or a shipping truck, THAT is theft of a potential sale.

On the other hand, you can only assume that a person would have bought a game were they not willing to pirate it.

Its the same thing you are acquiring it without permission or consent. Theft.

Its not being taken from anyone, so it is not theft. If I find 50 dollars on the ground and keep it, its isnt theft and this is in a situation where there is a discernable loss to someone. Much less is it theft when nothing has been taken from anyone, as per the definition

Finding money on the ground and purposefully making a copy of money are not the same thing. Furthermore, if you find money you should first try to find its owner.

Otherwise, its not much different from theft.

Is it stealing to purposefully make a copy of rice krispy treats?

I mean.  They sell those in stores.

If so... everyones mother should be in jail.

 

Intellectual propery laws are nessisary because for some reason we use the same model to sell infintly easy to duplicate things that have no "physical" costs as we do nearly impossible to copy stuff with a lot of physical costs.

Basically software and other such things should have a different model.  But until they do... it's the best we can come up with.  It's not theft though.

Hell it's hard to even argue it's abjectly wrong... but instead just currently wrong because of how screwed up our world is in trying to sell such products.

 

For an opposite example.  Child Labor.  Abolishing child labor in third world countries is actually wrong.  Everytime a government is pressured to do it... it just leads to the child death rates to skyrocket as orphans can't make money to live.

however is it really wrong to ban child labor?  No.  But because of the circumstances it is in that instance.


Piracy is wrong... but only because of the instance that people are trying to sell software... in reality a differnt buisness model should be used.  But because of special interest groups we have the situation we have now.

As such I won't pirate.  Since sales are how the devs get there money... but it shouldn't be that way.  Stuff like advertising during online play, sponserships and collecting money by sellinge beta keys and the like are the way it should work.

People are almost treating it as if someone tried to charge for a movie that was being shown in the middle of a public park.



Kasz216 on 12 August 2009
superchunk said:
chapset said:
What about all the tools that's are create to help pirating, the dvd burners, the Ipod, the blank cds and dvds, the divx players.
What if some other companies would give you all the tools to create a Ferrari by yourself and to use it, wouldn't you do it? The apple Ipod would not be where it is without napster and Kazaa, pirating started the mp3 business (well I think anyway)
What about High speed Internet would you really use up that 100GB download limit if you were not pirating? Pirating did a lot of damage to some companies but help a lot of others so it's not as wrong as people make it to be

I have dvd most of those items and still don't pirate. I use them for their intended purposes.

I copy my child's dvd movies so they dont' ruin the originals.

I take my digital video from my Sony camera and digital pictures from my cell and camera and make videos/gifts/etc.

I use them to backup my HDD.

As I have said before, I would never copy a product just because I have the capability. Without consent it is illegal and theft as defined above.

Pirating has done nothing good for any market. Music industry can use MP3's because their product can be broken down into small inexpensive parts, games and movies cannot. As their content needs to be whole to be of any value.

Pirating only helps the thieves.

The iPod and other such devices, along with their online stores, made MP3 and similar formats huge, not pirates.

Actually research tends to show... if it wasn't for piracy IPod sales would be much less then they were.

 



Wonktonodi on 12 August 2009

Fayec if you count it as money still in the economy then those who don't get it can count it as a loss. Save money is not the same as spent money. And can you say you saved 60 for gears or did you save 30 for it used or 20 or 10? all we know is you didn't spend money on something that you don't feel you need to have spent it on and I do.
If I were to pirate a million dollars worth of games that million dollars doesn't exist in the sense of saved money because i didn't have it to spend it the first place. But since I don't have it doesn't make me entitled to just take it. I'm done posting on this thread. I feel piracy is theft base on one of the definitions of theft and even if you choose not to follow that one it would still fall under piracy or copyright infringement. Both of which still illegal and to many in the world immoral. Yes morality has its gray areas since some people can find some very creative ways to justify it. I hope they catch the lot of you and slap you with the huge fines that make the amount you should have paid seem so much more reasonable. Funny how you might not have the money to make the choice to pay for it but you can't just copy money to pay the fines is the real thing or bankruptcy baby



N.Genckel on 12 August 2009

stfu, you ignorant mofo.



Check out my DS site.

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Kasz216 on 12 August 2009
Wonktonodi said:
Fayec if you count it as money still in the economy then those who don't get it can count it as a loss. Save money is not the same as spent money. And can you say you saved 60 for gears or did you save 30 for it used or 20 or 10? all we know is you didn't spend money on something that you don't feel you need to have spent it on and I do.
If I were to pirate a million dollars worth of games that million dollars doesn't exist in the sense of saved money because i didn't have it to spend it the first place. But since I don't have it doesn't make me entitled to just take it. I'm done posting on this thread. I feel piracy is theft base on one of the definitions of theft and even if you choose not to follow that one it would still fall under piracy or copyright infringement. Both of which still illegal and to many in the world immoral. Yes morality has its gray areas since some people can find some very creative ways to justify it. I hope they catch the lot of you and slap you with the huge fines that make the amount you should have paid seem so much more reasonable. Funny how you might not have the money to make the choice to pay for it but you can't just copy money to pay the fines is the real thing or bankruptcy baby

Calling it immoral is stupid in my opinion.  You shouldn't do it because that's how people get paid... but immoral?

I mean... was it immoral when your mom made you rice krispy treats?

If you go to a restruant and have a really good meal... the recreate it at home is that stealing?

If you are one of those savants at painting... and you go to a muesuem and paint painting you've seen in the museuem... are you stealing from the muesuem?

To all of these questions... OF COURSE NOT.

Software piracy is simply illegal because it's easy.

There isn't as much profit in other forms of distribution. 

Computer games would mostly be made by people who just loved programming in their spare time... that and games run on advertising models like TV shows and Hulu.

Same with music and movies...



stof on 12 August 2009
superchunk said:
BladeOfGod said:
i am sick of people bitching about piracy.

The averige payment in Brazil is about 220-230 dollars. And one guy from Brazil told me that games cost about 120 dollars there.(the new ones) So you except someone to spend more than half of his payment just to get one game??? You people need to understand that not everyone can afford to buy games even thought they HAVE a job.

My *net* monthly income is about $500 that I can spend any way I like. That $500 won't buy me the  new 46" HDTV I've been wanting because the tv's I want are around $1500. I can choose to save my net income for a while to buy that tv or I can choose to eat out, go to movies, and do many other activities with my children.

I keep choosing the activities and still have an older SDTV.

Just because I can't afford what I want doesn't make it right to take it. That is just stupid.

 

See, this is one of those twists of logic I'm talking about. Not the response to blade's post so much as you're again making the TV comparison. The whole point of the thread that YOU started was to address the notion of Piracy as theft even though you don't actually remove anything from anyone. But then you start compring it to a TV, which you actually have to steal from someones possession!

"I broke in to a business and stole their TV. now they don't have a TV" vs. "I downloaded a game. Now I have a game" Pretty big difference there.

 

Of course, your response to Blade's post raises a whole different can of worms. Poverty and different living standards be damned. How dare a poor brazillian have access to the entertainment of wealthy North Americans and Europeans!

All in all Superchunk. It's entertainment. Luxurious and superficial entertainment. The fact that a large industry has spread up around it doesn't suddenly make it an essential service or human right. Some people would rather put in the physical effort of downloading than the financial effort of purchasing. Whatever.  I don't see you making similarly enraged topics about equally immoral acts such as J-walking and not rewinding VHS rental tapes.



I'm a mod, come to me if there's mod'n to do. 

Chrizum is the best thing to happen to the internet, Period.

Serves me right for challenging his sales predictions!

Bet with dsisister44: Red Steel 2 will sell 1 million within it's first 365 days of sales.

stof on 12 August 2009

By the way. NSMB and Mario Kart DS aren't the DS's hardware movers. The R4 card is.



I'm a mod, come to me if there's mod'n to do. 

Chrizum is the best thing to happen to the internet, Period.

Serves me right for challenging his sales predictions!

Bet with dsisister44: Red Steel 2 will sell 1 million within it's first 365 days of sales.

L.C.E.C. on 12 August 2009
stof said:
By the way. NSMB and Mario Kart DS aren't the DS's hardware movers. The R4 card is.

Haha, sadly this is true. R4 cards have gone up in sale after the DSi came out. Why?

1. It made DLable games available to DSlite/phat owners (before DSi)
2. It used MicroSD, a variant of SD cards
3. It can still do more than the DSi (minus the camera), and it lets you play GBA and GBC games.




L.C.E.C. on 12 August 2009
Kasz216 said:

Is it stealing to purposefully make a copy of rice krispy treats?

I mean.  They sell those in stores.

If so... everyones mother should be in jail.

 

Intellectual propery laws are nessisary because for some reason we use the same model to sell infintly easy to duplicate things that have no "physical" costs as we do nearly impossible to copy stuff with a lot of physical costs.

Basically software and other such things should have a different model.  But until they do... it's the best we can come up with.  It's not theft though.

Hell it's hard to even argue it's abjectly wrong... but instead just currently wrong because of how screwed up our world is in trying to sell such products.

 

For an opposite example.  Child Labor.  Abolishing child labor in third world countries is actually wrong.  Everytime a government is pressured to do it... it just leads to the child death rates to skyrocket as orphans can't make money to live.

however is it really wrong to ban child labor?  No.  But because of the circumstances it is in that instance.


Piracy is wrong... but only because of the instance that people are trying to sell software... in reality a differnt buisness model should be used.  But because of special interest groups we have the situation we have now.

As such I won't pirate.  Since sales are how the devs get there money... but it shouldn't be that way.  Stuff like advertising during online play, sponserships and collecting money by sellinge beta keys and the like are the way it should work.

People are almost treating it as if someone tried to charge for a movie that was being shown in the middle of a public park.

 

Kasz216 also said:

Calling it immoral is stupid in my opinion.  You shouldn't do it because that's how people get paid... but immoral?

I mean... was it immoral when your mom made you rice krispy treats?

If you go to a restruant and have a really good meal... the recreate it at home is that stealing?

If you are one of those savants at painting... and you go to a muesuem and paint painting you've seen in the museuem... are you stealing from the muesuem?

To all of these questions... OF COURSE NOT.

Software piracy is simply illegal because it's easy.

There isn't as much profit in other forms of distribution. 

Computer games would mostly be made by people who just loved programming in their spare time... that and games run on advertising models like TV shows and Hulu.

Same with music and movies...

What's sad is that it's actually illegal to show a movie in the public park without paying. Also, I love how syou easily figure out that it's illegal because it's easy. If everyone could reproduce cars out of a roll of aluminum foil, I'm pretty sure that would be illegal too. I also love how nobody has yet to stop even though I pointed out that Jesus would have been considered a "pirate" by today's standard, nor has anyone tried to argue with me on that.

Thank god someone else sees the light though, both about how it's subjectively "wrong", and about advertising should be a revenue resource:

Seriously, read this post. I am a vocalist and songwriter for my upcoming band. I really don't want to be a casualty in this shitty piracy bullshit war:

http://www.vgchartz.com/forum/post.php?id=2341960

Great minds think alike once again. Expect lots of friend requests from this thread.

 

Kasz216 said:
Wonktonodi said:
Fayec if you count it as money still in the economy then those who don't get it can count it as a loss. Save money is not the same as spent money. And can you say you saved 60 for gears or did you save 30 for it used or 20 or 10? all we know is you didn't spend money on something that you don't feel you need to have spent it on and I do.
If I were to pirate a million dollars worth of games that million dollars doesn't exist in the sense of saved money because i didn't have it to spend it the first place. But since I don't have it doesn't make me entitled to just take it. I'm done posting on this thread. I feel piracy is theft base on one of the definitions of theft and even if you choose not to follow that one it would still fall under piracy or copyright infringement. Both of which still illegal and to many in the world immoral. Yes morality has its gray areas since some people can find some very creative ways to justify it. I hope they catch the lot of you and slap you with the huge fines that make the amount you should have paid seem so much more reasonable. Funny how you might not have the money to make the choice to pay for it but you can't just copy money to pay the fines is the real thing or bankruptcy baby

Calling it immoral is stupid in my opinion.  You shouldn't do it because that's how people get paid... but immoral?

I mean... was it immoral when your mom made you rice krispy treats?

If you go to a restruant and have a really good meal... the recreate it at home is that stealing?

If you are one of those savants at painting... and you go to a muesuem and paint painting you've seen in the museuem... are you stealing from the muesuem?

To all of these questions... OF COURSE NOT.

Software piracy is simply illegal because it's easy.

There isn't as much profit in other forms of distribution. 

Computer games would mostly be made by people who just loved programming in their spare time... that and games run on advertising models like TV shows and Hulu.

Same with music and movies...